What makes a production city?

Dunedein

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Centreville, Virginia
The title says it all.

I always have specialized commerce cities, which I have actually gotten fairly good at, but production cities always confuse me.

Should they be on rivers? But if it's on a river, shouldn't it be a commerce city? Should there be a lot of hills, and a lot of farmable grassland? What should go to this city improvement wise?

I always cover a lot of my land with cottages... because I feel like I need to in order to keep up in technology/GDP.
This has really been bugging me, because I get to the point where I want to build the spaceship, and I'm stuck with a ton of low-production, high commerce cities that can't build shat.
 
Potential for high levels of hammers each turn.

River cities can be great production cities late game if you build watermills, forges, factory and power plant, the Iron Works National Wonder and then run the State Property civic. But, most time people look to sites that have hills for mining and an ample food supply so that the mines can be worked.

In fact, a pure Grassland site with rivers can outproduce a heavily mined city with the judicious use of Workshops & Watermills if you run State Property civic.
 
I settle a city with a view to making it a production city if I believe that its tiles - just its tiles, no specialists or production bonuses - will yield at least 30:hammers: per turn using no improvements accessed after calender and machinery. 25:hammers: if my land has very little production potential.

Hills are nice as the predominant means of production but make use of windmills and farms for food and watermills for extra production. I'll put in workshops to make use of every last piece of flatland.

I make the assumption that since it has high production it can build health buildings rapidly so building on fresh water isn't neccesary.

Pre-industrial improvements: barracks, granary, stables and forge. Plus any buildings required to boost health and happiness caps (to the point that maximum production potential is achieved). In the rare case that the city has lots of excess food (unusual since food is burnt on production improvements) Angkor Wat is a good way to turn that food into yet more production.
 
Food resources and hills are optimal. Just don't found the city on a place with lots of hills but not enough food to work all mines.
Rivers are good for watermills and the health bonus for fresh water. I usually keep two or four forests which I don't chop for lubermills and the health bonus. Health can be very important when you need to work high production and low food tiles in a populated city with coal plant and ironworks.
A coastal city with seafood and mines is a good early producton city and if you make it your main military city your navy will profit from Heroic Epic, West Point or Red Cross.
 
There are different types of production cities as the game progresses, and depending on your civic choices.

Basically, any production city needs some tiles producing excess food and a number of tiles that produce a large number of hammers. You generally want to be capable of producing 5-6 excess food to allow the city to grow fast enough to reach its cap, and then use the population to work all the production tiles they possibly can. You might want to manually reassign workers at this point if the governor is misbehaving :) If you notice your happiness/health is far below your caps later on, grow the city some more (so it can work more tiles, thus producing more).

At the start of the game, hills and resources (stone, copper, iron etc.) are your main source of hammers. Mines continue to be productive throughout the game, so a city with a couple of food resources and quite a few hills is going to be capable of decent production from the start, if you improve the terrain correctly. Forests (especially plain forests) can be used to supplement production when you are nearing your health/happiness caps, by switching workers over from food producing tiles. It's generally not a good idea to chop down all the available forests, especially seeing as there is no way you need to improve all the tiles around a production city in the early game. A decent production city should be capable of producing things without the need for excessive chopping. That doesn't mean no chopping at all: chopping in a quick granary or forge can be very useful; chopping forests on hills to build a mine results in a boost to production in the early game. Just leave some forests for the extra production they provide on flat terrain, and hope for them to spread. You'll be happy you left them later on, both for lumbermills and the health bonus. Production-boosting buldings are generally detrimental to the health of the city.

Later on in the game, you gain access to workshops, watermills and lumbermills, which can dramatically increase a cities production capabilities, especially as you gain access to more and more techs that improve their output. Coupled with state property, workshops and watermills can turn any grasslands city into a production powerhouse that can continue growing as well - at this point you no longer need mines. You can simply clear an area of jungle (ideally with one or two food resources), and spam workshops or watermills at will.

State property is the ideal civic for waging war - your production is bolstered (by being able to spam workshops everywhere) and captured cities cost much less upkeep. This is the route to a domination victory. It's probably a good idea to know by the early mid-game (around guilds), whether you are going to switch to state property or not (i.e. go for domination), and improve tiles accordingly. If you aren't going to switch, workshops and not such a good improvement, and you're better off relying on hills and/or forests for production. For this reason, I'd say that forests become far more important to production if you aren't going to run state property.

Railroad lumbermills and mines around your production cities the turn you get railroad! You ought to have a number of relatively idle workers at this point anyway. Those extra hammers make all the difference when the multipliers are applied.

One thing not to do is build cottages around your production cities. You don't want to be wasting your production building libraries, markets and such, this is where you military infrastructure needs to go. Granaries are also very good, as production cities are often slower at growing once they reach a larger size. Other than that, barracks, forges, factories and a source of power are obvious musts; you also want to place the ironworks, heroic epic, west point and red cross in these cities. I like ironworks + west point in my top production city. Build laboratories if you're going for a space race victory.

Use these cities to build you empire's army. Any time you aren't bulding a vital building or wonder, these cities should be replacing obsolete units, garrisoning new cities or bolstering your growing invasion force.


Re: spaceship
Use your big production powerhouses to build the space elevator and the larger spaceship parts. It generally doesn't matter which cities are producing the casing ,for example; they'll probably be finished before you've researched fusion anyway (unless your cities are really THAT useless?!?!). What's far more important is making sure that the last couple of parts to be finished are built in the best production cities. After all, it's the last completed piece that determines when you can launch, not how quickly you built the others. Don't forget that you can switch to universal suffrage (to boost production from towns) and use bureaucracy to squeeze as much spaceship production as you can out of your cities!
 
Kind of along the same lines as VoiceOfUnreason's guide. Cities with most or all squares where F+P=5. This is the vast majority of tiles, though:
Plains or grassland: workshop: 1+4 or 2+3, respectively (needs SP)
hills: mine/railroad: 1+4 or 0+5 (make sure they can be fed, though)
Forests: Lmill/railroad: same stats as plains/grasslands, but doesn't need SP
Floodplains: watermill: 3+2+c (w/ SP, really good at 4+2+c)
river tiles: watermill: 3+2 or 2+3 (needs SP)

conclusion: just about any city w/o lots of deserts/mountains/tundra/ice/water tiles can be great production sites. I find more thinking involved regarding keeping the ratio of production cities:commerce cities, especially with respect to the end goal being worked towards.

Other notes:
-some resources provide squares where F+P>5 (cows, iron, horses, etc.) Sites that can snag multiple of these are best case scenarios.
-early game, where bonuses from railroads, state property, replaceable parts don't apply, it's harder to get max results here. In this case, look to have multiple resources that provide F+P=5 or better. Floodplains with a few plains/hills are good too (though these also make great commerce sites; think about city ratios as a deciding factor).
 
bassist and VoU have it right.

What I call a production city is a "all game long" production city. Meaning that you don't need to tech to electricity first.
For this you need hills and food.
The more food, the more hills you can feed.
A perfect spot is :
- coastal (to be able to build navy)
- has 2 or more food ressources, the best are fish, irrigated wheat, rice or corn, and cows (they give food and hammers!)
- has 4 or more plains hills. If you have grassland hills, you need to grow further but have higher potential. Desert hills are soso. 1 less hammer for each mine.

If you have 2 food ressources and 4+ hills, you can make an early production city. Build the HE there, and churn out military units. That's why it's better coastal : navy benefits from HE too ;)
 
conclusion: just about any city w/o lots of deserts/mountains/tundra/ice/water tiles can be great production sites.

...and thus the flexibility of Civ.
 
TBH, I'd avoid coastal cities as production cities, unless you can build a coastal city such that you only have sea-based resources in the fat cross. The lack of production from ocean tiles and the lack of extra food from non-resource tiles, means that you're better off using tiles you can improve. You just end up with too many tiles that are of no use to your (production) city that way. IMO, coastal cities are for GP farms and/or commerce, depending on what's in the cross.

Of course you want a couple of hybrid cities, which you can then use to produce your navy - but hybrid cities are not production cities!
 
My definition of a production city: A City where I did not build cottages.

...if I didn't build cottages, then I'm building farms and production-boosting items. That means I'm not going to bother with money multipliers and I'm not building libraries unless I really need the culture in that city. Instead, I'm cranking out units and I'm building the buildings that let me get that job done.

I look at production cities and great person farms as areas where I'm ignoring certain aspects of the city so that I can focus on one aspect rather than looking at them as areas where I'm trying to enhance something.

Just remember that all you care about are food and hammers and you'll see what you need to do. For Great Person cities just remember that all you care about are food and more food. :)
 
sjm said:
TBH, I'd avoid coastal cities as production cities, unless you can build a coastal city such that you only have sea-based resources in the fat cross. The lack of production from ocean tiles and the lack of extra food from non-resource tiles, means that you're better off using tiles you can improve. You just end up with too many tiles that are of no use to your (production) city that way. IMO, coastal cities are for GP farms and/or commerce, depending on what's in the cross.

Of course you want a couple of hybrid cities, which you can then use to produce your navy - but hybrid cities are not production cities!
True, water tiles are the least effective for production. However, in a game where such a late tech (astronomy) is needed to get off The Rock, the ability to quickly amass the fleet needed to convoy the units necessary to make a presence on other landmasses is unparalleled.
I would agree in that 80+ percent of my production cities are inland. I would disagree in that the city that gets Ironworks and West Point, the pinnacle of production cities, is coastal.
 
bassist2119 said:
True, water tiles are the least effective for production. However, in a game where such a late tech (astronomy) is needed to get off The Rock, the ability to quickly amass the fleet needed to convoy the units necessary to make a presence on other landmasses is unparalleled.
I would agree in that 80+ percent of my production cities are inland. I would disagree in that the city that gets Ironworks and West Point, the pinnacle of production cities, is coastal.

I don't see why you would associate IW and WP.
WP is for military use.
It applies to ships.
If you manage a coastal HE+WP combo, you have double speed production of "high" level ships. With a drydock and another xp source (vassalage, GG, theocracy), you start with level 4 ships.
Fast building level 4 ships is better than slow building level 2 or 3 ships, isn't it?

Of course you want inland IW. But it's not for units really. It's for wonders or space parts.
Example here (a town escaped my specialization moves, can you find it ;)? There is also one too many farm):
1884_ironwheat.jpg
 
I'd personally much rather be pumping out land units quicker than sea units. But maybe that's because I normally play continents, and the AI is pretty rubbish with its navy anyway. I don't think it's worth only being able to produce tanks every third turn (say), just in order to quickly produce battleships with an extra promotion every now and then. I'd rather produce the tanks in two turns, and have 1.5x more level 4 tanks... It's the land units that capture cities at the end of the day :)

As long as you're not miles behing the AI in tech, you're perfectly fine producing "normal" naval units in a "normal" city. And, if you are miles behind in tech, that one extra promotion ain't gonna save you. Or am I the only one who has hundreds of land units, but maybe only 20-30 naval units (huge maps and marathon)?

Of course, playing on huge maps, I can afford to have lots of cities, so it's easy to just tell 4 cities to produce an ironclad once I get steam power, rather than chaining 4 ironclads in a single city's production queue. If you're playing on small archipeligo maps, the situation is probably somewhat different - you probably don't have as many cities to dedicate to similar tasks.

Basically, I find myself producing naval units in batches; once I get a new tech that allows better naval units, I'll churn out a few. And before going to war I'll build up a nice invasion fleet.

But I pump out land units continuously; for garrisoning at first, then as extra mobile defenders or in order to invade my neighbour. Given that I produce such an uneven balance of land to naval units, it doesn't make sense to increase the production time of my best land units by half, just for the odd naval unit with one more promotion. The more top units I have, the better my overall army is :) Remember that ocean tiles are some of the worst tiles in a production city (after ice, tundra and desert of course), as without a resource they are completely worthless to you. You're nerfing your top production city for a minimal (IMO) benefit.
 
I may have missed the point but a good production city through out the game is different to one for building a spaceship.

A commerce city (using CE) takes a long time to build
A production city doesn't.

Farms, Workshops and Watermills all have very good bonuses in the end game and are fully functionally when the improvement is finished.
If going for spaceship I would consider changing hybrid cities (especially on rivers) to fully functional production cities with these improvements. You lose out on research in the end game but you can't make an omelette....
 
sjm said:
I'd personally much rather be pumping out land units quicker than sea units. But maybe that's because I normally play continents, and the AI is pretty rubbish with its navy anyway. I don't think it's worth only being able to produce tanks every third turn (say), just in order to quickly produce battleships with an extra promotion every now and then. I'd rather produce the tanks in two turns, and have 1.5x more level 4 tanks... It's the land units that capture cities at the end of the day :)

As long as you're not miles behing the AI in tech, you're perfectly fine producing "normal" naval units in a "normal" city. And, if you are miles behind in tech, that one extra promotion ain't gonna save you. Or am I the only one who has hundreds of land units, but maybe only 20-30 naval units (huge maps and marathon)?

Of course, playing on huge maps, I can afford to have lots of cities, so it's easy to just tell 4 cities to produce an ironclad once I get steam power, rather than chaining 4 ironclads in a single city's production queue. If you're playing on small archipeligo maps, the situation is probably somewhat different - you probably don't have as many cities to dedicate to similar tasks.

Basically, I find myself producing naval units in batches; once I get a new tech that allows better naval units, I'll churn out a few. And before going to war I'll build up a nice invasion fleet.

But I pump out land units continuously; for garrisoning at first, then as extra mobile defenders or in order to invade my neighbour. Given that I produce such an uneven balance of land to naval units, it doesn't make sense to increase the production time of my best land units by half, just for the odd naval unit with one more promotion. The more top units I have, the better my overall army is :) Remember that ocean tiles are some of the worst tiles in a production city (after ice, tundra and desert of course), as without a resource they are completely worthless to you. You're nerfing your top production city for a minimal (IMO) benefit.

Top production doesn't require WP.
It's not building units.
If you can afford to have 4 coastal cities building navy, you can certainly afford having 8 to 10 cities building land units.
IW is for high hammer projects, like a wonder or apollo proram, or space parts.
Look at my example.
I can build a modern armour in 1 turn alright, but what for?
Military is very interesting early or mid game.
Late game, it's just too late.
If you need to build fast, you can $buy anyway.
 
No, of course WP doesn't benefit production. But you do want WP in a city that can produce a lot of units pretty quickly. Obviously it also blends well with the heroic epic for this reason. Of course, what you need your production for is also partially down to the victory you are aiming for.

However, at least in my games, the space race is a miniscule portion of the whole game. It really makes sense to have been cranking out units in good production cities over the entire game (although probably again, marathon settings are different from quick games), rather than putting WP in a lesser city just because for the last fraction of the game you won't be producing units in your top production city.

A top production city will spend most of the game not needing to build anything (you don't need most buildings, there are only so many wonders you can feasibly get, and those buildings you do need are produced quickly), so why not churn out units with it - it's a better use of your hammers than research, wealth or cutlure? Especially if you're going for a domination or conquest victory, you'll kick yourself for not putting WP in a top production city. After all, you'll never even research most of the techs required for a space race (if any at all).

It doesn't make sense to cripple your military production over the entire game, just because of the last few of turns of the game. By the time it's come down to a space race, you probably won't be churning out those level 4 battleships either - as long as production is decent, you'll be building space ship parts there too. So why nerf the benefits you can have?

Buying is for cities with *#*@ production. Otherwise it's a very bad bang for the buck. And again, if you're going for a space victory, you want the commerce for research, not rush buying.
 
sjm said:
I'd personally much rather be pumping out land units quicker than sea units.
Fully agree, but remember that it's not that coastal cities produce only navy. They build both land and sea, whereas inland can ONLY make the former.
 
sjm said:
It doesn't make sense to cripple your military production over the entire game, just because of the last few of turns of the game. By the time it's come down to a space race, you probably won't be churning out those level 4 battleships either - as long as production is decent, you'll be building space ship parts there too. So why nerf the benefits you can have?

Buying is for cities with *#*@ production. Otherwise it's a very bad bang for the buck. And again, if you're going for a space victory, you want the commerce for research, not rush buying.

what bassist says +
one basic fact :
you won't have 100s of turns to play after IW.
It's a late game national wonder.

Meaning that you need a good production city for military purposes before that.
And after that, I won't be building IW in my best military city. Why? because I need the units more now than in 30 turns.

An early production powerhouse is very much compatible with being coastal.
You won't be running more than 6 hills anyway, so you don't need more than half the tiles to be land.

My coastal HE city usually builds units in 1 turn. I can't see how this is crippling :confused:.
Maybe you play at marathon speed?

Rush buying is for commerce empires.
I can buy 2/3/4 units per turn for if I need to. Why crippling my project builder by having it building units?
You cannot rushbuy projects.
So you'd better rushbuy units ;)

And I'm certainly building battleships and artillery in my HE+WP city while every other city builds space parts. If I put WP in my IW city, it just means WP is useless, since I'll be building apollo program, internet, space elevator, 3 GD or space parts in IW city (so no units obviously).
 
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