What makes a VP great person, great?

Tekamthi

Deity
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
2,011
Recent discussion re: great people and eligibility of certain controversial historical characters left a lingering thought; curious for others' takes. Might also be useful if/when we seek to expand these name lists and/or their civiliopedia entries.

By what criteria do we evaluate whether a great person deserves to be a great person?

or

By what criteria should we evaluate...?

(great prophets excluded)
 
Out of curiosity since we where not all part of this discussion it might help a bit if we knew which are the controversial once? And why. Is this a slavery issue and such again?

They are historical figures from another historical time. Most of them where not saints even back in their own time. I find it hard to be overly, or even at all, upset about any of them today. They are just historical figures of note. They are not necessarily great human moral beings beloved and liked by everyone, that would probably be histories shortest list. Good luck filling a list of great historical figures that nobody have any issues with.

That said I don't think I care or think to much about them. They might as well just be like the great prophets -- nameless. Cause as far as I am concerned they are just like "great something number x" of whatever class etc they are. They are just there to be popped to gain a bonus, a boon, a great work -- some kind of benefit to me. If they where horrible people in real life? Don't care. They are placeholder names in that regard.
 
Out of curiosity since we where not all part of this discussion it might help a bit if we knew which are the controversial once? And why
Elon Musk started the discussion lol and consensus was NO -- as engineer he is of middling accomplishment and as merchant he has yet to establish the commercial objective of many of his projects... on the other hand he has certainly achieved notability if thats all we care about.

But for sake of developing some screening framework, I propose Musk be deemed ineligible on the basis that his exploits are ongoing and unfinished, and would suggest this as a general criteria for all VP great people: no active present-day contemporaries. This will naturally get rid of much possibility for controversy in that active and living figures will tend to be attached to active and ongoing controversies. But I have a feeling we may have examples that already defy this rule?

As for controversial figures generally, i think many in this community have spent much time online and are not easily offended, but also recognize that things like names are more of garnish and not really of much gameplay value -- these are for thematic flavor and its reasonable to plan that flavor to be as enjoyable as possible.

Anyway the topic of interest is criteria to balance the various concerns and contraversial-ness to keep VP reasonably approachable to anyone that might be interested while also rich with historical content -- finding GP names from some cultures is easier than others, so must also balance between truly meaningful names without getting too deep into obscurity. Resolving criteria itself should not be controversial, lets try to stay focused towards that end. I think it needs to be somewhat narrower or more specific than just any historical figures of note. In each category we might define what a great accomplishment is, for example.

One question we might consider up front here -- to what degree can legend and myth serve as a basis for some names, and how do we restrict such sources so the whole thing doesn't get completely whacky. i note in this regard that we have fountain of youth and el dorado and king solomon's mines in the game, for example... Xcoms as well. There seems to be some room for extra-historical, alternate universe content, but how to evaluate such? In some regards, fictional names evade a lot of the politicization that comes with real world figures. Just for fun if nothing else, could we include renowned characters plucked out of globally-recognized media franchise, for example? Can you think of any non-historical characters that are so well recognized that they might fit? For example if I received a great diplomat named "Uncle Sam" i would not complain
 
Last edited:
Well we already have Scrooge McDuck as a Great Merchant.
 
Lmao, to have Scrooge McDuck in-game is hiliarious. :D Might aswell have Great Engineer Tony Stark or Great Scientist Doctor Octopus. Civ6 have vampires, but I don't know if we'd like to go in that direction :P

It's weird, though, to be against, for example Elon Mask, because of controversies, while having Genghis Khan as a leader at the same time.

as engineer he is of middling accomplishment and as merchant he has yet to establish the commercial objective of many of his projects
That's a very controversial take, because of Tesla and SpaceX.

general criteria for all VP great people: no active present-day contemporaries.
That one makes sense, although, I wouldn't be against including Bill Gates.
 
Being dead is usually a common criteria for getting things named after you, it's easier then cause they might not do weird things while still alive. But it's not a guarantee. Just look at all the explorers and traders/merchants that in somewhat recent years had statues removed and so forth due to things they did while alive hundreds of years ago that have today fallen out of favor or presented in a new light.

Elon. A complicated man in that regard. Clearly controversial today, beloved by more or less everyone just a few years ago. Not even quite sure what he would be. Great Merchant? He isn't much of an engineer as far as I know. Or is he?
Gates. Similar. Loved and hated at the same time. Is he a great engineer or a great merchant in that regard? He seems more like a merchant (business leader) then an actual inventor or engineer.

I would be against either. But then as noted it would probably help if the great person was dead in that regard. Not that I'm suggesting that we make it so.

Having Tony Stark and Scrooge McDuck etc is funny in that regard. Is that a potential copyright issue? After all it's the Mouse. They don't seem to care for and like others touching their characters. Do I think they'll notice or care? Probably not. But you never know.

As noted tho there are a some Great Leaders in the game that are by the standards of today mass-murdering-psychos. Possibly heroes in their home nations. Not so much for their neighbors or places further away on the other side of the world.
 
Elon Mask, because of controversies
the concern with Elon is just his confirmed 'greatness' re: his contributions in advancing civilization -- is he truly a genius and leader or moreso a PR man and lottery winner? he fits as GP especially since he's become the mascot for proponents of the 'great man theory', though when we get into that topic we quickly cross lines into religious thinking and messianism, and return to the question of what criteria should we acknowledge as great? is public perceptions of the current ~decade and individual wealth enough? then he's in for sure...

Tesla and SpaceX
the thought here is that he is not materially involved in the cutting edge engineering thats taking place -- and evaluating either of these on their commercial merits... well many of their ratios and metrics we would typically analyze by are not good, abysmal even, and hinged on future things that are expected to happen -- spacex has achieved the thinnest of margins and have much r&d yet to do, similar criticisms can be made with tesla.

Not even quite sure what he would be. Great Merchant? He isn't much of an engineer as far as I know. Or is he?
from my point of view the big win for elon thus far is paypal. But even there his success largely came from fortuitous stock positioning. I've worked for paypal its no engineering marvel lol for many years there was a lot manual excel work and accounting reconciliations taking place to make the 'automated' payments seem like they were actually automated :lol: the engineers just built a fancy accounting ui that forever needed updating for new devices. But its certainly a great commercial success, thats undeniable

That one makes sense, although, I wouldn't be against including Bill Gates.
I would say bill gates is retired from the development or engineering phase of his career, and certainly did achieve something remarkable in his early days as a technical person. So in this sense he is not a present-day engineer, perhaps, but eligible for this category? I would leave him off the merchant list yet as he's still active in this sense to some degree.

it would probably help if the great person was dead in that regard. Not that I'm suggesting that we make it so.
lol great people never die, they live on forever as structures and yields. I prefer 'retired' to 'dead' as eligibility criteria, as it opens up at least some semi-topical and current names for discussion.

Having Tony Stark and Scrooge McDuck etc is funny in that regard. Is that a potential copyright issue? After all it's the Mouse. They don't seem to care for and like others touching their characters. Do I think they'll notice or care? Probably not. But you never know.
this is good point to consider perhaps for longevity of the main mod.. who knows what trends takeover in 10 years, maybe IP law goes crazy. Restricting to public domain characters, besides being safe, is maybe a good limiter on the potential silliness of leaving fictional names as possibility. Also an argument in favor of restricting names to dead people, maybe

As noted tho there are a some Great Leaders in the game that are by the standards of today mass-murdering-psychos
my take on this is we should add new category of "not so great people" lol maybe "infamous people" or even "great barbarians". Then the project would not be seen as endorsing these so much. At same time, any form of platforming may be seen as endorsement, and really what would it add to have every tyrant and oppressive maniac included? not much really. So there'd have to be some gameplay justification for such which rn doesn't really exist

once upon a time the civ franchise had unnamed 'barbarian leaders' that had to be captured/destroyed -- something for modmod perhaps
 
Last edited:
my take on this is we should add new category of "not so great people" lol maybe "infamous people" or even "great barbarians". Then the project would not be seen as endorsing these so much. At same time, any form of platforming may be seen as endorsement, and really what would it add to have every tyrant and oppressive maniac included? not much really. So there'd have to be some gameplay justification for such which rn doesn't really exist

once upon a time the civ franchise had unnamed 'barbarian leaders' that had to be captured/destroyed -- something for modmod perhaps
We should probably just stay away from them. It doesn't really add anything of value to include them beyond potential headaches. Some of them have been around for a long time and are now classics. But some fell out of favor fast, like Stalin (civ1, civ4).
 
We should probably just stay away from them. It doesn't really add anything of value to include them beyond potential headaches. Some of them have been around for a long time and are now classics. But some fell out of favor fast, like Stalin (civ1, civ4).
yes agreed -- if someone wanted to make some of these characters into barbarian events however as modmod, tbh i'd probably play it lol, assuming reasonably well executed. barbarian play is kinda flat, just sayin
 
Gates. Similar. Loved and hated at the same time. Is he a great engineer or a great merchant in that regard? He seems more like a merchant (business leader) then an actual inventor or engineer.
More inventor/engineer than a Merchant. He made Windows after all.
 
Do you think there's room for some sort of congress-esque process to consider new names? seems we still have enough activity in this community, that if we did something like 'great candidate of the month' with a poll yay/nay, we'd probably get enough votes to assess broad opinion... a number of formats available

recapping, as far as criteria emerging from discussion so far:
  • merchant: brand associated with great wealth (scrooge, musk) may be enough
  • engineer: must be perceived as having done the technical work of some renowned project, not just capitalized said project
  • public domain preferred for fictional names
  • dead/retired personalities preferred but not exclusive
  • controversy does not necessarily disqualify
 
Do you think there's room for some sort of congress-esque process to consider new names? seems we still have enough activity in this community, that if we did something like 'great candidate of the month' with a poll yay/nay, we'd probably get enough votes to assess broad opinion... a number of formats available

recapping, as far as criteria emerging from discussion so far:
  • merchant: brand associated with great wealth (scrooge, musk) may be enough
  • engineer: must be perceived as having done the technical work of some renowned project, not just capitalized said project
  • public domain preferred for fictional names
  • dead/retired personalities preferred but not exclusive
  • controversy does not necessarily disqualify
I'd have no problem with a ton of proposals that are just "should we add X as a Great Person?"

Keep in mind though that Writers, Artists and Musicians are more complicated because some of their work is included.
 
I agree that great people should not be currently living people. That seems to me to be an easy and uncontroversial rule to apply that would eliminate 99.9% of controversy.
 
There'd be more authenticity to names like musk if they had votes to back them up.

That said there's already a lot of voting every Congress, maybe some other method might be better suited, idk
Why, though? Congress seems like the perfect tool for it. You create a list of people that you'd like to include and then community votes on it.
 
Why, though? Congress seems like the perfect tool for it.
my point is maybe some separate process could be used, ie to keep us entertained in the interim lol -- if nothing else could have a specific subforum for names, open to proposals at any time, upon being proposed and seconded, poll is open for 30 days, if successful name gets added.

if its done at congress time i will not put as much thought into it
 
I would say that making votes on including individual great persons names will completely undermine congress, make it a bit divisive due to invluding "political" biases etc, and water down its primarily mission: testing game mechanics.

I would not be against Gates, he has established role in history, but I think Musk or others - there are just too recent, and are adding an easily avoidable idological stain in certain western audiences on the game we cherish as strategic challenge in roughly objective historical vision.
 
Back
Top Bottom