What makes the late game...

[QES]

civs in civ4 are way too complacent, stalling a AI is very easy

I agree. The interesting about history, AND vanilla civ, is that there is increasing instabillity with technolgy and world "shrinkage". As the world becomes smaller, more intense and local conflicts errupt, and the possibilities to "blow it all to hell" become more realized. If we're going to have concepts like "Armeggedon" in the game, then I should suggest that we have something close to the Nuclear Showdowns, and Epic World Wars that could bring about such a thing.

In my esteem this can be brought about in three ways that i know of:

Spoiler :

A) The cleverly designed "end" rituals already in place...set for balancing the issues of power in the world.
B) The reintroduction of a global-killing spell/technology. World peace is tenetive becuase Nuclear weapons can destroy it, if used, it would regress the targeted civilization to the ancient age (if not wholey destroying the planet)
C) Create military units that are cheap and powerful. The cheap cost is necessary to reflect "total" war. While i like national units....and do not ever want their flavor to be gone, there must be (for some civs) the option of mass-production/ numbers game. The orcs, and possibly undead-users come to mind. In this, nationalism (the civic) should be a VERY viable option late game to QUICKLY pump out large numbers of troops (like in a world war), and defeat an enemy who is likely doing the same. When Numbers become a major issue in the late game, whole economies must turn to either war or peace. This makes peace much more wanted, but far more dangerous to pursue. Basically, some sort of Late-game GI is needed. Whatever it is should NOT be more powerful than national units, but be more powerful than the maceman/pikeman. If possible, this unit should ALWAYS be purchasable at 1 population point in nationalism (as opposed to the realative production required to make it). Thematically the middle ages did not experience "total war" (despite what the video game tells us), but if we could reintroduce some sort of magical component to replace what technology gave us in the early to mid twentieth century - we would again have late-game conflicts that would be as stressful as the early game conflicts.

This might work, what do you think?
-Qes

 

[Xuenay]

More of my Fellowship/Treant idea, it might be cool if the Fellowship had two more unique techs (which would naturally have more tech requirments than the one they have now).

New 1: Gives the ability to build the Ancient Forest improvements Chalid mentioned. Extends Treant lifespan, allows Treants to spawn in defense of Fellowship cities (once per city?).

New 2: Extends Treant lifespan and gives them Combat I (and maybe a couple of promotions more, depending on how powerful the other units are at this point?). Each turn that the Fellowship is in war with somebody, there's a 2% chance for a Treant to spontaneously summon somewhere within the Fellowship lands.

 

[Xuenay]

I agree. The interesting about history, AND vanilla civ, is that there is increasing instabillity with technolgy and world "shrinkage". As the world becomes smaller, more intense and local conflicts errupt, and the possibilities to "blow it all to hell" become more realized. If we're going to have concepts like "Armeggedon" in the game, then I should suggest that we have something close to the Nuclear Showdowns, and Epic World Wars that could bring about such a thing.

In my esteem this can be brought about in three ways that i know of:

Spoiler :

A) The cleverly designed "end" rituals already in place...set for balancing the issues of power in the world.
B) The reintroduction of a global-killing spell/technology. World peace is tenetive becuase Nuclear weapons can destroy it, if used, it would regress the targeted civilization to the ancient age (if not wholey destroying the planet)
C) Create military units that are cheap and powerful. The cheap cost is necessary to reflect "total" war. While i like national units....and do not ever want their flavor to be gone, there must be (for some civs) the option of mass-production/ numbers game. The orcs, and possibly undead-users come to mind. In this, nationalism (the civic) should be a VERY viable option late game to QUICKLY pump out large numbers of troops (like in a world war), and defeat an enemy who is likely doing the same. When Numbers become a major issue in the late game, whole economies must turn to either war or peace. This makes peace much more wanted, but far more dangerous to pursue. Basically, some sort of Late-game GI is needed. Whatever it is should NOT be more powerful than national units, but be more powerful than the maceman/pikeman. If possible, this unit should ALWAYS be purchasable at 1 population point in nationalism (as opposed to the realative production required to make it). Thematically the middle ages did not experience "total war" (despite what the video game tells us), but if we could reintroduce some sort of magical component to replace what technology gave us in the early to mid twentieth century - we would again have late-game conflicts that would be as stressful as the early game conflicts.

(Could you please use less spoiler tags? It's a bit of a bother click on the "show" button on half of your posts. And it's not like they'd really spoil anyone. )

B might be cool, though in real life it has the effect of reducing wars, not increasing them. Still, a limited number of very powerful doomsday spells (national unit 1 per nation, or some such) would be a neat thing to play with.

Hmm... suddenly I got the thought of each religion having a chance of building their own, really powerful magic items (read: One Ring). Then I realized that the Avatar units already have the role that I started thinking about. Still, they don't quite have the same flavor... new sorts of Avatar units that give huge bonuses to the cities they're located in, perhaps? Like an Ashen Veil "+150% undead production" one? (This would also fit your point C.) 'Unless you go out and destroy the Gate to Hell, the demons coming through it will soon overwhelm us entirely.'

C might also be fun, though it might also make the game more tedious. If I'm going to win anyway, I'd rather destroy the three stacks of fifteen units than the fifteen stacks of thirty units, if the final outcome is the same anyway. Then again, I like the thought of being forced to draft away the entire populations of my cities in one epic struggle to survive the enemy onslaught.

 

[Sureshot]

B might be cool, though in real life it has the effect of reducing wars, not increasing them. Still, a limited number of very powerful doomsday spells (national unit 1 per nation, or some such) would be a neat thing to play with.

thats only true if every nation has the world destructive capabilities, otherwise those with them can declare war without worry (since they do have a backup plan in case the war goes badly and their enemies can't say the same).

 

[QES]

(Could you please use less spoiler tags? It's a bit of a bother click on the "show" button on half of your posts. And it's not like they'd really spoil anyone. )

I use them because i have a tendency to make VERY large posts, and you want evidence just click on my name and look for "other posts". THe spoiler tags are a curtesy for those who dont want to have to scroll past my ramblings on end. So i use spoiler tags to shrink the post and cause less hassle.

B might be cool, though in real life it has the effect of reducing wars, not increasing them. Still, a limited number of very powerful doomsday spells (national unit 1 per nation, or some such) would be a neat thing to play with.

Hmm... suddenly I got the thought of each religion having a chance of building their own, really powerful magic items (read: One Ring). Then I realized that the Avatar units already have the role that I started thinking about. Still, they don't quite have the same flavor... new sorts of Avatar units that give huge bonuses to the cities they're located in, perhaps? Like an Ashen Veil "+150% undead production" one? (This would also fit your point C.) 'Unless you go out and destroy the Gate to Hell, the demons coming through it will soon overwhelm us entirely.'

C might also be fun, though it might also make the game more tedious. If I'm going to win anyway, I'd rather destroy the three stacks of fifteen units than the fifteen stacks of thirty units, if the final outcome is the same anyway. Then again, I like the thought of being forced to draft away the entire populations of my cities in one epic struggle to survive the enemy onslaught.

My ideas are rough and generally unpolished and i Do so love it when people point out the potential and problems with them.
On C) My idea wasnt about "stack" warfare any longer. It would change the face of warfare by being lots of spread out units, instead of large stacks duking it out, or beseiging cities. WHen this point in the game is reached, i was thinking of a change in how warfare is waged. Less stacks, more spread out, and numbers matter to cover ground.

-Qes

 

[dreiche2]

About the end-game tech/ritual/building, keep in mind that not all Civs are necessarily going to be wanting to "prevent" you from winning. Some might be convinced that they can win before you by another method, and some might rather see you win than another Civ that they don't like. In vanilla, it's not like all Civs declare war on you once you complete the Apollo Program, so I don't think it should necessarily be different here.

The point was to make it different from the vanilla thing, and I like that dogpile war flavourwise...

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I agree. The interesting about history, AND vanilla civ, is that there is increasing instabillity with technolgy and world "shrinkage". As the world becomes smaller, more intense and local conflicts errupt, and the possibilities to "blow it all to hell" become more realized. If we're going to have concepts like "Armeggedon" in the game, then I should suggest that we have something close to the Nuclear Showdowns, and Epic World Wars that could bring about such a thing.

In my esteem this can be brought about in three ways that i know of:

Let's see, I have two, strong, mutually inconsistent viewpoints here.

First, I was hoping that this thread would produce stuff more along the lines of economic boosts and such that the team might be able to use (not that it hasn't already).

Secondly, and more enthusiatically, I like those ideas. I'd say that C might be more easily introduced, and probably has a better "work-for-the-team:fun-for-us" ratio. However, B could also have some interesting features. Were you thinking more along the lines of one super destructive energy that, once found, has the capacity of turning the world into a lump of inert carbon, or some potentially unique things that each Civ could do to hasten the end of the world?

There might be some interesting flavorful mechanisms that could be made for the latter option. Admittedly, it might be best to wait a stage or two before implementing something that awesome, but there's nothing to stop us from brainstorming on it now.

The creation of cheap shock troops at the tier-4 level of technology might be nice. Sending in stacks of macement to support your paladins just feels a bit strange. I would definitely push for this to be added.

How do you think players could be encouraged to use smaller stacks that can cover more ground? I like the idea, but I'm not sure how it would work.

The point was to make it different from the vanilla thing, and I like that dogpile war flavourwise...

I confess, I do, too. But playability is also a concern here.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Why oh why does this forum lose messages. yet another hour of typing lost. Damn it all. I hit the spacebar and a dozen paragrpahs vanished.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Damn it I am not going to retype al of that. That's teh third time I've lost a large message while typing online. So here's the Reader's Digenst Version.

Endgame is "dull" because, unlke in the early-mid games, the player feels 'safe'. So long as you can build at least a couple types of tier 4 units, and/or have a few highly-skilled heroes or tier 3 units, a competent player can defend against any single AI oppoent. That takes off the pressue in th end-game. The player can line up all the ducks before going for the win.

The ideal endgame as envisioned is, I expect, a global war between civs of differing styles. But due to duck-aligning, this war is fought when civs have reasearched a LOT and can field "their" units and "the other guy's", both.

I guess I see the endgame occuring well before reaching the end of the tech tree in total. As Ragnorok proceedes, each civ researches up their favored branch. But pressures are to much to afford the luxury of reseaching up all the trees. Thus is diversity maintained, and the usefullness of tier 3 units boosted.

So, aside from the concern about a builder's victory, perhaps the endgame dullness can be solved by pacing rather than needing drastic change? I play on Emperor/Epic. I suspect I'd have a much harder time playing Emperor/Normal as compared to Diety/Epic. This is because, I presume, Epic gives me more time to catch up to the early technological leaders. (That is never me on Emperor ... except once as the Ljoalfar/Fellowship.)

Does anyone have a good feel for how pacing affects the game? If you are finding the endgame dull, will moving to a faster pace make the end-game more tense, because you're still worried about the superior AI units?

Another fix might be the "Fire" project Kael & Ko. have discussed. Pushing AI civs to decide one way or the other should make the endgame mroe interesting. Especially if/when the AI starts ganging up on the human. That alone sounds like it would go a long way.

Anotehr excelent idea comes from another poster (name forgotten ) who plays with no tech trading allowed. I was aghast, until I read his rationale: It really, really forces each civ to become "different". NO ONE can discover EVERYTHING. This should make the endgame rather more interesting, but it comes at a dear cost: loss of much of the diplomatic sub-game.

OK, Posting this, then on to some nebulous ideas next message.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

OK, I have not played FfH nearly as much as most of y'all. My games that ended came well before the tech tree was reached. So I've not much experience with the 'dull endgame' and thus have no ideas worth expressing. And here they are.

Tick. Tock. I liked the idea expressed above that some wonders should generate a global message when they are begun. And it would not be a bad thing at all were the Fire code to modify AI behavior based upon who is building these world-remaking projects. I'm alking about things like Blight, and the other Armegeddon-scale projects. Don't want to see BLight built? Better see about screwing up City X's resources, yes?

Secrets Man Ws Not Meant To Know, Part I Research a tech and build the wonder and watch ????? happen. IOW building the wornder triggers a random effect. The random effect bin could include the ideas generated here, but deemed 'Not Quite A-List Material'. Anything mighthappen, from a reverse Genesis, to a new Barbarian city appearing complete with Dragon, to the loss of all Clam / Fish / Crab resources ... whatever. Baeleorph or however you spell that nutjob's name would love building this thing, yes?

Secrets Man Ws Not Meant To Know, Part II If you don't like the idea of the randomness of Part I, how about moving the Armegeddon projects up way early on the tech tree, and make them a bit longer to build? So you have a bunch of relative cavemen unwittingly trying to release conjure forth the World-Eater that will destroy all civilization. Talk about secrets man was not meant to know!

Now, combine this change with the global announcement above. You know some idiot is out there building Blight, you want to stop them, so the pressure is on to go to war before you wait to align all them ducks.

I know it is counter-intuitive to put some of the most powerful Wonders/Projects in the middle of the tech tree, but consider the effect on the end-game pacing. As is, in my experience, the super-powerful stuff never coes into play. Move 'em up, and force players to desparately crave and strive for those powerful endgame units so they can save their lives!

Killmorph Shrugs Not an end-game idea really, but another idea for an Armegeddon-class Wonder/Project. The effect is to raise land masses upwards, or IOW to lower sea levels. All Coastal tiles on the map, except those producing Fish etc, get replaced by Tundra/Jungle tiles. Adjacent Ocean tiles get converted to Coast. T/J tiles are chosen to represent the most difficult to terraform/improve. The net effect would be to utterly destroy a modern world economy, as every coastal trade city in the world suddenly finds itself high and dry. Some lucky cities might retain access to the sea, thanks to a lucky Fish, Crab, or Clam tile, but most of the world's trade would be shattered. Don't want to see it built? Try and stop 'em.

Gods Awakened VEnture down this tech branch to open an entire new civics panel. But moving the slider on this panel does not affect only your civ, it affects all civs. Possible effects could be, off the top of the head,

Descent of the Veil Tiles that have been Tainted reamin productive and receive +0.5 +1 .

Ordered Universe All Demonic and Conjured units gain a Planeshifted promotion. All Disciple units gain a Gatekeeper promotion. (Planeshifted: -10% STR per promotion, max of 5 promotions. Gatekeeper: +10% STR / promotion, max five.)

And so forth. The idea is, each choice would represent a hightened 're-awakening' of a certain God. That's why it would affect every civ, not just the civ who selected the civic. And that's why the effects must be made stackable, as, say, Bannor and the Mercurians might both seek to stengthen the Order.

Optional: Get 5 civs to choose the same Diety civic, and open a special endgame victory condition / all hell breaks loose / nifty coolness.

Hmm, I thought I had another one, but I'm gonna post this before it, too, goes poof. If I think of more I'll be back. (You've been warned.)

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Ahh .. I remember the last idea. It's not so much my idea, as it is an inspiation from the unnamed posted cited earlier. Here's an idea, perhaps fit to be shoved into the Gods Awakened concept above.

Tower of Babel Since I stole the idea I may as well steal the name. Let's build a Wonder that prevents civs from talking together. Once the Tower of Babel is built, no more [choose one or more] Tech trading, Resource trading, Open Borders, Defensive Pact, Permanent Aliances, etc, can take place. Maybe it could lock out certain civics, such as Foreign Trade. This allows players to start with Tech trading allowed, but turns it off before the painful tech path choices are truely felt. Thus, hopefully, giving players the best of both worlds.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Heh, if that's the "readers' digest" version, I'd love to see the full message.

I guess I see the endgame occuring well before reaching the end of the tech tree in total. As Ragnorok proceedes, each civ researches up their favored branch. But pressures are to much to afford the luxury of reseaching up all the trees. Thus is diversity maintained, and the usefullness of tier 3 units boosted.

Interesting. This could be a very useful idea. I'd like to see technology progress forced to stop, with each Civ having to deal with what they have up to that point. I like the idea of Ragnarok happening not when a certain tech is researched, not when a certain turn is reached, but when the average number of beakers obtained per Civ (the average, so some would be ahead, others could be behind) reaches a certain level. Is this workable?

More late game tech ideas:

A building that gives +50% culture to cities that it's built in.

Buildings that add either ,, or to the city tile, but also take one of them away. (i.e. +4 -1 ) Encourages specialization.

A wonder/ritual that halves the cost of all wonders/rituals for the builder.

A second "pact of the Nilhorn" type building that spawns friendly barbarian units.

A wonder that causes a culture bomb in all of your cities.

Edit:

Tower of Babel Since I stole the idea I may as well steal the name. Let's build a Wonder that prevents civs from talking together. Once the Tower of Babel is built, no more [choose one or more] Tech trading, Resource trading, Open Borders, Defensive Pact, Permanent Aliances, etc, can take place. Maybe it could lock out certain civics, such as Foreign Trade. This allows players to start with Tech trading allowed, but turns it off before the painful tech path choices are truely felt. Thus, hopefully, giving players the best of both worlds.

I like it, could make things very interesting. Hopefully, it would have the effect of making everyone a lot less secure about their empire.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

" Interesting.This could be a very useful idea. I'd like to see technology progress forced to stop, with each Civ having to deal with what they have up to that point. I like the idea of Ragnarok happening not when a certain tech is researched, not when a certain turn is reached, but when the average number of beakers obtained per Civ (the average, so some would be ahead, others could be behind) reaches a certain level. Is this workable?

{re:Tower of Babel} I like it, could make things very interesting. Hopefully, it would have the effect of making everyone a lot less secure about their empire. "

(Something screwed up the quotes box.)

Clarification: When I spoke of Ragnarok, I didn't mean the construction of a particular wonder. I mean that point the hearalds the start of the endgame, when one civ makes the move to win. And (ideally) the other civs rally to stop them. ffH is designed to represent a war-happy universe, so generally speaking I think it's designed to feature a warlike endgame.

That's why I like moving up the super-powerful Wonders/Projects. They already take a looooong time to build. Adjust the timing so their construction might be underway as early as when civs are still trying to move from tier two to tier three units. That will force nations to early war, and/or will give the super-wonders a chance to trigger wheile the ultimate, tier-four would war rages. That'll put a few onions in the ointment.

That's not to say a true 'builder victory' would not be welcome. Perhaps that's where the 'Gods Awakened' concept can come in? Get enough civs to select the same Supranatural Civic to trigger an UN-tpe victory condition? Just thinking out loud here... clearly a victory condition needs cosiderable thought.

As for the Tower of Babel, yep, I think anything that undermines the player's sense of security is on the right track.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I know what you meant by Ragnarok, I'm just trying to put my own spin on it. What if it was next to impossible to complete the tech tree fully, and you'd end up having to rush units and draft for all you're worth just to survive at some point? Having this event happen when the average number of beakers gained per Civ reaches a certain level would also create the situation of having some Civs that have focused on research having to pump out units to bolster their currently weak armies, while others might not be so tech'd, but they'd already have a standing army (with which to make their move). It would probably have to be an option that you could toggle, but I'd turn it on.

 

[Sureshot]

ya, thats why i like playing Deity/Raging barbs, in the beginning it can be very interesting just surviving

 

[Chandrasekhar]

ya, thats why i like playing Deity/Raging barbs, in the beginning it can be very interesting just surviving

Good stuff.

Here's how I'd like to see FfH: in the beginning, it's a struggle to survive. An AI Civ or two might even get wiped out. Players are focused on getting techs that will let them survive for another fifty turns. In the middle, it's all about expantion, trying to out tech and out spread your rivals. In the end, all Hell breaks loose, and the last man standing wins.

That said, I still want there to be some sort of economic element to the end of the game. You run out of techs to research which enhance your peacetime power way too early.

 

[Sureshot]

ya i agree with that type of game, currently (with deity raging barbs) thats how it plays out except for the end part, currently the endgame is just tedium like in vanilla civ.

and ya thats why i'd like more "future techs" that do different things, so theres always the ability to improve your cilization technologywise, but also variety in it (+1 happy as one, +1 health as one, +1 xp per certain unit types ones, etc.).

for the trigger of the endgame, personally id like it to be when one player has double (or 1.5 times like the barb trigger) the score of the next highest competitor.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I know what you meant by Ragnarok, I'm just trying to put my own spin on it. What if it was next to impossible to complete the tech tree fully, and you'd end up having to rush units and draft for all you're worth just to survive at some point? Having this event happen when the average number of beakers gained per Civ reaches a certain level would also create the situation of having some Civs that have focused on research having to pump out units to bolster their currently weak armies, while others might not be so tech'd, but they'd already have a standing army (with which to make their move). It would probably have to be an option that you could toggle, but I'd turn it on.

Hmm, something that puts the kibosh on R&D does sound interesting. It needn't be permanent, or total. Say a -90% hit on global research, so the antitdote technology could eventually be discovered. A "Dark Ages / Rennesance" thing?

The one thing that concerns me is the thought those civs behind in tech would be ahead in military size. Some backward civs could find themselves doublescrewed. OTOH, the backwards civs might be the ones to want to trigger such an event .... give them a chance to catch up.

Such a concept seems to fit nicely with the "Gods Awakened" concept, as it is a thing that affects all civs. Perhaps the Gods, jealous bastards to the end, hate the idea of their minions learning stuff, so they put down the brain clamps. Afterwards, only knowledge the Gods want known is allowed to dribble out, via the Gods civic panel.

Which in turn would set up a unique role for the agnostic Grigori. They could be given a bonus for the 'Rennescance' tech, or be resistant to Gods civics. Since The Gods love to meddle in the affairs of Men, the Grigori can exist to meddle in the affaisr of Gods and to See How They Like It For A Change, Ah-Ha!

Seems to me there's some bones of an idea here. But I dunno if any meat will stick to 'em.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I'd prefer the research hit to occur indirectly, as in you won't be running 100% research because you need to be using your cash for other purposes. I'm also a bit doubtful that this mod is intended to go beyond the middle ages (though modern pseudo-magical dystopic settings are cool). Still, enforcing the tech penalty directly might also be an option.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

ya i agree with that type of game, currently (with deity raging barbs) thats how it plays out except for the end part, currently the endgame is just tedium like in vanilla civ.

and ya thats why i'd like more "future techs" that do different things, so theres always the ability to improve your cilization technologywise, but also variety in it (+1 happy as one, +1 health as one, +1 xp per certain unit types ones, etc.).

for the trigger of the endgame, personally id like it to be when one player has double (or 1.5 times like the barb trigger) the score of the next highest competitor.

I play Emperor/Raging/Agressive AI/Epic, and the gaming experince is much the same. Very tense opening, tense mid-game, certain victory - but when?! for the endgame. But I've been using the term 'endgame' a bit differently from you. I use the following loose definitions.

Opening game: Turn 1 until a few cities exist, the raging barbs are compartmentalized, and your neighbors are generally known.

Midgame: From that point on to the filling in of "natural" borders. For a solo game the midgame consists of taking your startng position, however it had to eveolve to survive, and developing it according to your design.

Endgame: That vague moment when your civ transitions from playing catch-up, to having enough weight to drive for the desired victory condition. Even if a couple AI civs are bitterly hostile, you know that at worst you'll be able to hold them at bay.

So obviously for me the endgame starts wayyyyyy before any future techs are reached. The problem is, once you make that transition from frantic catch-up to getting a leg up, there's little to compel you to make your move until you've got all your ducks in a row. In the opening and the mid games, time is working against you. In the endgame, time is on the player's side. There's where I think we target ... how to keep the clock ticking on the player through the whole game?