What makes the late game...

[Unser Giftzwerg]

No offense but seems like most people see future techs as being all candy and flowers. I mean the future is uncertain, in real life world new techs don't always happen without a cost.

So what if future techs happened randomly as suggested earlier in the thread. However there was possiblity of getting negative effects too.

Here are a few i can think of off hand.
1: Kills x% of your total population
2: Kills x% of non unique military units
3: Shrinks x% of your cultural influence
4: Kills x% of organic terrain bonuses (fish, whales, etc)
5: Diminishes gold by x%
6: Kills x% of specialists (or causes them to abandon you, either way)
7: Causes a revolt which turns one of your cities over to barbarians, preferabbly one that has some tier 4 units.
8: Starts a plague which is transferable via trade routes ( curable perhaps )
9: Madness strikes your most powerfull spell caster ( hey its the cost of being brilliant )
10: Farms operate at reduced output for x turns ( when magic and agriculture go wrong )
11: Abandon GOD ( one of your cities becomes heretical and you have to use an inquisiter to remove the new religion before converting it again, otherwise it might just start spreading. Big negative consequences for you $$ and dimplomacy wise for followers of the true faith, you allow heresey!)
12: Alienate your allies, any civ you have open borders with starts to hate you because your so teched up. I mean you must think your too good for them and better than everyone else

OK those are just a few ideas but i can think of at least 2 dozen more "flavor events" and these could easily be used in lots of fun ways other than "sour techs" Tack one on to your favorite wonder, etc. Or theres always the thought of making them random events.

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to change the term used in the mod from "Future Techs" to "Secrets Mortals Were Not Meant To Know". Put some goodies in there ... ya gotta tempt the player to keep science turned on ... but lace some disasters in there too.

Congratulations fool, you've opened a portal to Hell. Prepare for visitors and the end of days. (No RSVP required.)

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

I don't like the idea of random effects from future tech.
I'd prefer that they stay exactly the way they are with just +1 +1 as oposed to random effects. You have control over all the technologies that you research during the rest of the game, why would you not maintain this control? Yes, these technologies are "dabbling in things unknown", but so were all of your other technologies. How can I know that spending 10 turns researching "Iron Working" will allow me to build better soldiers? Is this any different then knowing the effects of a future tech?
I would prefer there to be more variety in the future techs, but not at the cost of strategic decision making.

The idea of a negative modifier or chance of causing bad problems sounds like an intreaging side effect for some necromatic technologies, but I would refrain from applying it to all of the future techs; I don't think that it would be fun. I would want the tech to still offer enough of a bonus to outway the risk if such was included.
Anyone have any good ideas for repeatable necromantic technologies with possible negative effects?

 

[tyrantpimp]

@ Unser Giftzwerg
"Secrets Mortals Were Not Meant To Know" ~ Yup sounds more appropriate

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Some of those penalties are pretty harsh. I'm not going to invest 10,000 in something that both gives me a marginal benefit and has a significant chance of throwing my carefully constructed and maintained empire into chaos. One of the very big issues with the late game is the fact that being tech'd up doesn't give benefits comparable to the efforts that must be made to have a high output.

On a side note, has anyone ever actually seen the AI win a game? I'm not asking if you've lost before, I'm just wondering if it's ever said "Capria wins a religious victory!" or somesuch. I've yet to see it, myself, but maybe someone has.

 

[QES]

i'd think it would be better not to make it a gamble, and instead a certainty... like you create a random mana node somewhere in the world (which might help your enemies and not you) but it always causes fallout around your cities (waste production of the research).

Thinking on the random creation of mana nodes, i dislike this idea. Technology pursued should not randomly benefit other nations. My idea wasnt simply giving mana for tech usage. Instead it would allow the "already in existance" mana improvements to be built on ANY land, even lands without mana nodes. In this, technocrats can specifically target the mana they need, it may take them SEVERAL different technologies to amass all the different specific spheres they lack for their quest, but as they develop, they'd be able to produce mana, from improvements that are not connected to nodes. This is what i meant by artificial production.

The random mana node production, could wind up hurting you more than helping, especially if your the techonlogical powerhouse, and not the military, money or production power house.

-Qes

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I don't like the idea of random effects from future tech.
I'd prefer that they stay exactly the way they are with just +1 +1 as oposed to random effects. You have control over all the technologies that you research during the rest of the game, why would you not maintain this control? Yes, these technologies are "dabbling in things unknown", but so were all of your other technologies. How can I know that spending 10 turns researching "Iron Working" will allow me to build better soldiers? Is this any different then knowing the effects of a future tech?
I would prefer there to be more variety in the future techs, but not at the cost of strategic decision making.

The idea of a negative modifier or chance of causing bad problems sounds like an intreaging side effect for some necromatic technologies, but I would refrain from applying it to all of the future techs; I don't think that it would be fun. I would want the tech to still offer enough of a bonus to outway the risk if such was included.
Anyone have any good ideas for repeatable necromantic technologies with possible negative effects?

Your points make sense, but, OTOH, I believe the game is "intended" to conclude long before many Future Techs/SMWNMTKs have been developed. My take is, in an the optimal game of FfH, the Final Battle will take place when none of the leading civs knowing all the designed techs. Different nations will be strong in one branch, but will not have had the luxury to reaseach up in their 2nd, and/or 3rd, and/or 4th priority branches.

If your games are always ending in FT territory, perhaps an adjustment of the difficulty level, or game speed, would move the endgame up "earlier" in history? (I'm not sure which way to adjust though. )

If the game was "intended" to conclude only after everyone knew every tech ... why aren't there techs designed to come into play during all those climatic turns? If the 'normal' game always runs into FT/SMWNMTK territory, won't every game play out much like every other? Unless there is some variety to the techs, there will be a lot of similarity between games.

The hard way to add variety is to add more techs to the tech tree. The easier way is to randomize a dozen or so recycleable/stackable effects. FT coding probably shouldn't get a whole lot of priority, because, inevitably, at some point the game runs out of designed techs. At this point it seems reasonable to go for the easiest 'cool-enough' design solution. Whatever that might be.

 

[dreiche2]

in my experience having bad things happen to you at random isn't much fun, especially if they can't be countered(surprise: your hero has suddenly died of dysentery! Yeppeah! ).

Random challenges and boni might be, though...

 

[tyrantpimp]

Some of those penalties are pretty harsh. I'm not going to invest 10,000 in something that both gives me a marginal benefit and has a significant chance of throwing my carefully constructed and maintained empire into chaos. One of the very big issues with the late game is the fact that being tech'd up doesn't give benefits comparable to the efforts that must be made to have a high output.

On a side note, has anyone ever actually seen the AI win a game? I'm not asking if you've lost before, I'm just wondering if it's ever said "Capria wins a religious victory!" or somesuch. I've yet to see it, myself, but maybe someone has.

Sure I can see your point here. What if the benefits could be comparable to the side effects. What if each became greater than the last tech and took longer to develop as well?

And as a disclaimer those events i name are just off the top of my head, im sure i could think of some wimpier ones. But in all honesty i would like to see this stuff happen randomly in the late game. Make something happen anything is better than hitting return waiting for the final attack.

 

[tyrantpimp]

in my experience having bad things happen to you at random isn't much fun, especially if they can't be countered(surprise: your hero has suddenly died of dysentery! Yeppeah! ).

Random challenges and boni might be, though...

Sure but what about when it happens to the AI?

In my experience its just great when the mighty get smited

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Some of those penalties are pretty harsh. I'm not going to invest 10,000 in something that both gives me a marginal benefit and has a significant chance of throwing my carefully constructed and maintained empire into chaos. One of the very big issues with the late game is the fact that being tech'd up doesn't give benefits comparable to the efforts that must be made to have a high output.

On a side note, has anyone ever actually seen the AI win a game? I'm not asking if you've lost before, I'm just wondering if it's ever said "Capria wins a religious victory!" or somesuch. I've yet to see it, myself, but maybe someone has.

I agree that if you tie a lot of penalties into performing an activity, players will avoid that activity. So the negative results would have to be in the distinct minority, or be quite imaginative.

I will say one thing though ... the idea of potentially disasterous 'Secrets' makes a certain amount of sense in the fantasy setting. As mre and more powerful majiks are unlocked ... as more and more battlefields crackle with the fury of tier 3 spells ... the very fabric of the universe is in danger of unraveling. Yet the mortals press on, made haughty by their conceits that they are the Chosen People.

I've not seen the AI win, though once it looked like Ljosalfar might be trying to a cultural victory. Buty your question sparks the imagination.

How about using FT/'Secrets' to try to add three benefits to the game?

1> Add some danger/spice/drama to the endgame.
2> Add some special victory conditions for some limities special AI victory conditions
3> Provide incentive for the human player to earn FTs/Secrets too ... despite the risk of shooting oneself in the foot.

The example that occured to me involves the Infernals. It occurs to me it should be possible to design some AI leaders to be quite happy to go full-bore after FT. (Tangent: Some AIs could be designed to turn off all R&D at this point, like the Khazad.) So even if the Human turns off all R&D, various AI leaders will press on. They are liable to unleash all them nasties anyway, even if the human player does not want to see them appear.

Now what say if the real reason the Infernals have invaded out world is to open a rift between dimensions? Domination and Conquest victories are all well and good, in the Infernal mind, but all that really matters is inventing the right FT. If the Infernals get lucky on the random FT roll, they invent the tech that starts spawning free demon units. Or allows construction of a building that summons 'free' units, or allows construction of a Wonder that will give the Infernals a Special Victory?

So the Infernals have this special victory possiblity out there. But there also exists a Sever The Thread FT that would forever break the link between this world and the Infernal Dimension. The Infernal special victory would be impossible. The desparate search for this tech might keep the player pumping out R&D, even if he'd rather not take the risk.

This is pure "what if" stuff. Though a case can be made for the unraveling of reality in a fantasy world, there's no obvious reason it must be included. After all, if it's a really cool idea, maybe it should be placed in the normal tech tree so it could contribute to the fun in every game?

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

in my experience having bad things happen to you at random isn't much fun, especially if they can't be countered(surprise: your hero has suddenly died of dysentery! Yeppeah! ).

Random challenges and boni might be, though...

Yeah, challenges and boni are more what I had in mind. Just an instant 'poof' half your army died, what do you want to reasearch next? (one choice menu) sort of randomness doesn't have much fun. But suddenly having to juggle a new headache can add to the tension/fun. Something that can be countered, and something that occurs oer time.

 

[tyrantpimp]

OK let me just say that i can think of better situations to use some of my wet blankets than just tech research.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Researching future techs in order to boost up my economy so I can afford to reserach more future techs... a circular endgame isn't what I'm looking for. I really like the idea of the final conflict being played out before every Civ has every tech. There was an idea I had about that which would almost guarantee this, but it seemed to fall of deaf ears, here.

Is there anything obviously wrong with having some sort of armageddon condition happen when the average number of gained per Civ reached a certain level? Whatever it is, demon spawning, total war, anything at all, it would serve to make the endgame memorable and immediate.

The only other way I can think of is to do what vanilla did and make there be a builder/tech victory condition. I know Kael dislikes this idea, but there still might be some way to make it flavorful and functionally different than the dreaded Space Race.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Researching future techs in order to boost up my economy so I can afford to reserach more future techs... a circular endgame isn't what I'm looking for. I really like the idea of the final conflict being played out before every Civ has every tech. There was an idea I had about that which would almost guarantee this, but it seemed to fall of deaf ears, here.

Is there anything obviously wrong with having some sort of armageddon condition happen when the average number of gained per Civ reached a certain level? Whatever it is, demon spawning, total war, anything at all, it would serve to make the endgame memorable and immediate.

The only other way I can think of is to do what vanilla did and make there be a builder/tech victory condition. I know Kael dislikes this idea, but there still might be some way to make it flavorful and functionally different than the dreaded Space Race.

Well, as far as 'obvious' goes, I would not trigger Armegeddon on an average. The presence of one or two tiny, very backward civs would dramatically lower the average. The fact there happens to be an as-yet undiscovered tribe on some remote island shouldn't have that kind of influence. I'd tie the trigger to what the front runner or two are doing. I don't know if that qualifies as obvious or not, but there ya go.

In the less-obvious department, my only fear is this would lead to a lot of 'sameness' from campaign to campaign. The same game-shaking event will occur at abot the same period in history in most games. That generally leads to players falling into a scant handful of 'optimal' strategies. ""Let's see, it's Year 277. Demon Lord Eatyourface usually appears around 310-325. I could really use Optics now, but I'd better just take Iron Working. Again."

I made a similar suggestion with the same effect in mind. Move the big Armegeddon projects so they can be begun long before the end of the tech tree is exhausted. They already take thousands of hammers to build. Putting them at the end of the tree means one of two things. Either they will never come into play, or, games will routinely extend into the 'Future Tech' era.

Anyway, the idea was some of these outrageous events might be nearing completion in most normal games. A player who does not want Blight to occur might be motivated to start a war he'd ordinarilly avoid or delay. I mean to say, this might happen while the tech tree is still being climbed. So combatants would, presumably, field diffent types of forces.

And of course there is the project actually in the works, as described by Kael. Forcing the AI to be more aggressive towards the player, and eventually having the AI 'pile-on' ... that should liven up the game.

 

[Sareln]

Alternatively you could attatch differing Secrets that Man was not Meant to Know to the ends of the tech tree. Say you've been doing the melee game all the time, how about the secrets tech at the end of the melee tree gave you an ueber promotion for your melee units, similar benefits along the line.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Well, as far as 'obvious' goes, I would not trigger Armegeddon on an average. The presence of one or two tiny, very backward civs would dramatically lower the average. The fact there happens to be an as-yet undiscovered tribe on some remote island shouldn't have that kind of influence. I'd tie the trigger to what the front runner or two are doing. I don't know if that qualifies as obvious or not, but there ya go.

Less advanced Civs increasing the amount of research that the upper Civs can do is precisely what I'd like. I want there to be a greater bonus for managing to overtake all of your rivals in scientific research. There's already bonuses for doing this in production (war) and land mass (obvious), but no real FfH reason for doing so. I guess it could be changed to per population point, or per military unit or something else.

In the less-obvious department, my only fear is this would lead to a lot of 'sameness' from campaign to campaign. The same game-shaking event will occur at abot the same period in history in most games. That generally leads to players falling into a scant handful of 'optimal' strategies. ""Let's see, it's Year 277. Demon Lord Eatyourface usually appears around 310-325. I could really use Optics now, but I'd better just take Iron Working. Again."

Heh, it's still better than Orthus' habits.

I made a similar suggestion with the same effect in mind. Move the big Armegeddon projects so they can be begun long before the end of the tech tree is exhausted. They already take thousands of hammers to build. Putting them at the end of the tree means one of two things. Either they will never come into play, or, games will routinely extend into the 'Future Tech' era.

Do you ever try to build armageddon projects? Do the AI every try it? If neither of these are true (as they probably are for most), then these armageddonish effects must happen out of the direct control of the players.

And I'm looking forward to Kael's war enhancements as much as anyone.

 

[Sureshot]

I made a similar suggestion with the same effect in mind. Move the big Armegeddon projects so they can be begun long before the end of the tech tree is exhausted. They already take thousands of hammers to build. Putting them at the end of the tree means one of two things. Either they will never come into play, or, games will routinely extend into the 'Future Tech' era.

ya, lots of hammers and lower tech on some of the armegeddon types would be nice, or just more Rituals like Natures Revolt, which aren't devastating but come early. I suspect work is already being done in this regard, as Natures Revolt shows.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Less advanced Civs increasing the amount of research that the upper Civs can do is precisely what I'd like. I want there to be a greater bonus for managing to overtake all of your rivals in scientific research. There's already bonuses for doing this in production (war) and land mass (obvious), but no real FfH reason for doing so. I guess it could be changed to per population point, or per military unit or something else.



Heh, it's still better than Orthus' habits.



Do you ever try to build armageddon projects? Do the AI every try it? If neither of these are true (as they probably are for most), then these armageddonish effects must happen out of the direct control of the players.

And I'm looking forward to Kael's war enhancements as much as anyone.

Well, I don't think I've ever seen a game of ver II last long enough for anyone to have a chance to start one. I've only finished a couple games. I've seen the AI build 'em in ver I ... lost half the quality units in my Army when a few Queen-ships were Wondered out of existance in the middle of the ocean. That got my attention, as I had no idea what Wonders even existed at that point. I presume the AI would try building them in ver II if they learned the tech.

This is another wrinkle to the endgame discussion, but the comparisons I'm running on the opening game have give me some (very) preliminary thoughts on the opening game's impact on the endgame. In short, there may be some benefit to pushing some -boosting techs to later on in the tech tree. The nebulous thought being, a civ can start developing a modern economy very quickly. and -boosting techs come later. So by the mid-game your realm already has an end-game economy. This in turn makes the endgame a bit tedious because development pressure is off. You're striving to pile up "goodie" techs before The War breaks out. With a cooler economy, perhaps you'd not be worried about luxury techs as much as you would be about save-your-ass techs.

Like I said, a nebulous hunch at this stage. In genral I think a lot of great concepts already exist in the game. The trick is in the pacing so they appear in Ye Olde Clashe Ofe Civilizationse! A little nudge at the beginning can have profound effects in the endgame.

Well, semi-random thoughts... gotta run.

 

[hawkeye72]

I think any late game techs should have some potentially disasterious random consequences. Think of it as making a savings throw in D&D, sure you get the benefit say free mana. But ooops you accidentally unleashed a plague as a by product.

All of these new techs would require more powerful magic, more bloody sacrifices, more (you get the point.) I just see this as being a more interseting alternative than free tech candy. Essentially your dabbling in things unknown here, there must be a price.

AND yes the price must be paid in blood

Why would this apply only to late game tech research? Isn't any research, by definition, cutting edge when it is occuring? I can see the later game research MAY be more potentially devastating, but doesn't research at any time have the chance to go wrong?

Are there different things you might put in place that could reduce or minimize that damage? The FDA inhibits the speed at which medicine gets to market, but it also decreases the likelyhood of some really bad meds affecting the greater population as a whole.

 

[tyrantpimp]

Ok had another idea, sorta rolling along other peoples ideas as i brainstorm. This one is actually more of an end game alternative. Its a technologicial victory only you get really bad side effects like i described as you tech up. Nerfed up or suped up depending on difficulty. And of course as you persue it all the other civs get pissed and seek to kill you. Even the ones in your same alignment, because your going after things not meant to be known.

The closer you get the more bad stuff happens, the more stuff happens the harder it is to complete. Plus your probably fighting everyone else since they now hate your guts.

So there if you want to persue end game this way theres no telling how it ends. Toss in enough random badness and it just gets damn wacky.

Maybe have it setup so these things you shouldnt know are not at all at the very end, perhaps they pop up randomly in the tech tree too. Untradeable secrets your civ devotes its entire energy in discovering. While doing so however you are forced to neglect other techs.

OK im just making it up as i go along but the more i think about it the more im starting to like the idea hehe.