What should we do if Hiawatha declares war?

[blackheart]

Well, a new poll seeking to override the previous ones (pural) will not be accepted. I got enough experience to see what is cooking up here.

I doubt this poll or Donsig has the constitutional authority to override anything. I view this as getting a second opinion from the doctor. This debate about a poll overriding previous polls has been going on for a while, I think it is time for a judicial review on the matter!

 

[Provolution]

Blackheart, you will see more than a judicial review on this

 

[Chieftess]

Take all but one city nested in Babylonian territory.

 

[donsig]

We have only extreme options here: no war and wipe them out! Where is option to get few cities and leave them alive? I guess that means 'other'.

Wow, you've hit the nail on the head! you see if neither *wipe them out* or *play defense only* wins then the next step would be to look at the *other* responses and poll those to refine our understanding of the will of the people.

 

[Provolution]

WEll, the doctrinal poll stands until next turnchat, since we fight to conquer, and if others
are not specified in a new poll, the doctrinal planning remain the platform until every single doctrine is renegotiated and polled. Donsig, The time is not on your side, these polls are to remain until we get a different outcome. If your all defense or all destruction loses here, there is not even a doubt that this poll is invalid for planning purposes.

 

[donsig]

I am AGAINST so-called People initiatives that are mere attempts to undermine attempts done in the recent reform package, which will be sent for a ratification approval in next term. I have also seen no inputs from you Donsig in the military planning that works within the parameters of these new doctrines. You seem bent on 2-3 choice private polls where you limit the scope of options people can choose in, where my polls are public polls are open and flexible. We think different, but MSAV is already organized as it should be, and we stick by our polls.

How can I *seem bent* on any type of poll given I've posted a total of ONE poll? I did not limit the scope of people's options. I showed them the two extremes, gave them the option to pick something between them and even invited them to tell us (publicly) just where in the middle of those two extremes they think we should go. The purpose of this type of poll is to get a general sense of the WotP and to encourage discussion (right here in the poll thread) that will lead to a better understanding of the WotP. I also made it private because I value ravensfire's opinion in this matter as much as any other citizen's. Who knows how many people have been driven away by the insistence on public polls.

No, you have not seen any input from me in the military planning. Do you know why? I don't think we should have war! DUH!

(BTW - for those of you who like ot know what others voted - I voted for defenseive war only.)

 

[Zarn]

I want defensive only. I believe that this warmongering makes the game too easy and it gets boring pretty quickly.

 

[GenMarshall]

I want defensive only. I believe that this warmongering makes the game too easy and it gets boring pretty quickly.

I would agree and go with a defensive war and only take cities that contain wonders.

 

[Cyc]

Wow, you've hit the nail on the head! you see if neither *wipe them out* or *play defense only* wins then the next step would be to look at the *other* responses and poll those to refine our understanding of the will of the people.

donsig, you are using your newfound burst of popularity to disrupt work already done by a concerned citizen. You are, with this poll and the ones you promise to create, doing nothing but duplicate Provolution's polls. WTH would you do what you said in the above quote, when the Minister of the Military has just finished doing this? Because as always, you causing more trouble. True it is everyone's right to post polls about whatever they want, but when some holds the Office of the VP, you shouldn't go around stating your prefernce for Foreign Affairs (our eminent war) and then post polls to push your point of view. That's unethical for that Office. Dirty pool. This can be seen as a biased poll, as will your future promised polls. Your three option polls do not have the depth and plan coverage that Provo's did. You are asking the citizens to list all of the work that Provo did, that they already voiced their opinion on, or take an easier answer. That's not a good polling practice. Someone with as much experience as you who does this, can't be looked at as a newbie making a mistake or misunderstanding the situation. What you are doing is wrong, and you know it.

I voted other in this biased poll and would prefer we follow the Doctrine of taking the former Roman cities, MC, and Salamanca.

I also know you can be an endless bag of wind, donsig. Therefore I will not argue with you about this point any longer. That would be as futile as arguing with Strider...

 

[Provolution]

Donsig, you are a new persona to me, and this experience made me look into the DGIV threads, and convinced me that we have very very little in common. I am an open minded person, but this vile attempt to undo work already done cannot be tolerated. That you got some brethren to wag your tail, I cannot handle. See you in the casino for some game of Voter, Donsig....

 

[Cyc]

I would agree and go with a defensive war and only take cities that contain wonders.

CG, think about what you're saying. With a defensive war, we wouldn't be taking the cities that have Wonders. You would vote OTHER and choose to adhere to the already approved Doctrines that do what you wish. Don't fall prey to stupidly worded polls.

 

[blackheart]

And the stage is set for the showdown gunbattle to see who is the last mand standing!

If by breathren you're referring to me, Donsig is new to me as well.

 

[donsig]

Well, I'll risk proving I am indeed a bag of wind by pointing out ONCE AGAIN that if earlier polls actually ascertained the WotP then this poll (nor any other) will undo anyone's previous work. If it will then please tell me how.

And while you're at it tell me where it was decided what our goals would be if we were attacked by the Iroquois. Some tried pushing a war for certain goals but the people didn't want the war. By logical extension they didn't want the goals either. And we all know this is not about war. This is about building the Forbidden Palace in Veii. Those who want to do that need a war. One of them saw some Iroquois guy and his squaw riding around in a canoe and all of a sudden Hiawatha is about to attack us! How convenient for those who want to switch the FP from Odawara!

And I'm accused of trying to get things my way?!?

 

[Provolution]

Blackheart, I am afraid your dreams of a Naderish Japanatica fell into the Abyss this term

 

[Provolution]

MSAV consider the Other win as mandatory with 7 votes to 4 total war and three non voters. Granted this poll had been binding, it would have to lean towards Doctrinal Reforms anyways.

 

[Crimso]

donsig, apart from the polling, do you have any problems with the Doctrine itself?

 

[blackheart]

The biggest problem with this poll is the broad options and then the other options. It would have been better to put this in as a discussion.

 

[gert-janl]

This poll is just as legal as Provolution's polls. Both polls were posted by citizens. Although the outcome may have to be considered by a future minister, neither of these polls has a legislative status. This poll is not binding, let that be clear. It will only show the will of the people, as described in Article J in the constitution, just as Provolution's polls will.
Therefore, Provolution, you should not feel offended in any way. In the next term you will be tasked with determining the will of the people. That includes this poll as well. And every citizen may poll.

 

[Provolution]

Well, I am glad that Donsigs polls are his individual polls for his own political display.
Fine, I now trust I got the people that count on the doctrinal side, and we will go from there, and I choose to ignore any fuzzy logic that is not giving timely lpans to respond in kind. My doctrine is antebellum claused doctrines, NOT Casus Belli, which is a pure FA matter. FA has polled a non-removal of force as Casus Belli, and that poll won an absolute majority. Then again, Donsigs Don Quixote Party and their many windmill strategies has only served to create confusion on how to run a war, and their last poll was just a method of obstructing and confusing our new democratic war planning after
its very inception. For the first time in this campaign someone tried to democratize war planning by ready made response plans, then the previous Presidential Candidate Donsig seeks to undermine this new initiative for unknown reasons simply in order to promote strife and self aggrandaizement, with no constructive bearing in his proposal at all. Donsig and his associates prepared no war plans dealing with a purely defensive wars. If they want their mongoloid fantasies to have any bearing, they better write their own war plans, since few sane citizens go along such a policy that has no analysis, strategy or presented ideas, and beyond all, very limited backing.
If Donsig played his cards right, we could have presented some practical and operational ideas on how to improve the game, not just flogging others with new ideas, backing it up with hollow WTOP rhetoric and multiple legal accusations right and left.
When Cyc, CT and several others have an issue with him, and manage to keep the peace after their internal squabbles, that says it all....

 

[donsig]

Well, I got up at 6 am in NY, took a 16 hour drive to NC, rested a short time and opened a bottle of Guiness Draft. And in that time NO ONE has bothered to reply to my last post in this thread.

At least I don't think anyone replied. I don't quite understand all the ranting and raving in Provolution's post. It seems to me that he's saying he just polled generic war goals, i.e., he makes no distinction as to how the war started (nor I assume does he care why it started) he just wants to know what we want out of it. Maybe it's just me but if we wanted Hiawatha's cities I thought we would have declared war and taken them. Silly me for thinking. I should stop that bad habit. It leads to all sorts of crazy ideas like this one: If the people decide they don't want a war with the Iroquois then that probably means they want to spend the time and resources that a war would have taken on other things. Now, sure, we can get war when we don't want it like when Hiawatha beats his war drums and send his braves after us. But even then we have a choice. We could fight a defensive war using minimal effort and continue with the projects we already decided we want. Or we could drop those projects and go full tilt to war. (Or something in between those two extremes.) Now, don't villify me anymore - I'm only showing the craziness that comes about when one thinks.

Could it be that a pre-programmed response is not such a good thing? The Doctrine is a great idea for planning offensive wars since it is proactive but leaves much to be desired as a reactive plan.

Now lets get back to the other issue I raised earlier. This is all about building the Forbidden Palace in Veii. There are some who are hell bent on doing that and they need a war to do it. But since the FP is one turn from being completed in Odawara they have raised the spectre of war to hoodwink us into halting work on the FP. Halt the FP and more of us will want war to take Veii. Complete the FP in Odawara and less will want war. I would also think that our war goals might change if the FP is built in Odawara. Blindly sticking to a Doctrine that was formulated under different circumstances than these is foolhardy.