What should we do with the Great Spy

[2metraninja]

What should we do with the Great Spy which is coming in 6 turns?

Here are some arguments for the options of the poll:

Option 1 - building additional Scotland Yard

Even running 3 spies, if Sangre is Working all of its farms, it should still be able to end up with like a 6 surplus, which will allow it to work all its mines as well, and still have enough to run 1 more spy (we would need to build a security bureau).

Running 3 spies, the city makes about 33 So if we put another Scotland Yard there, we get +70. Either way, we will have a base espy of about 150-160 points, with the slider at 0% (by way of comparison, we get 144 points a turn now running the slider at 10%... 88 points at 0%), assuming we keep running spies everywhere that we are currently running them. With a base espy that high, we can prety much do whatever nasty tricks we want to whoever, whenever, steal, tech, change civics, steal money whatever... We will be very dangerous.

Option 2 - Settling it in Themiscyra

settle the G.Spy in Themiscyra, which will add roughly 30 to our base espy

Option 3 - keeping it for a espionage bomb when we need it

Option 4 - using it for a Golden Age

I will advocate a Golden Age for us. I think we are ok by outespionaging the crippled Mavs and Merlots, but if we try to do this with a finacial monster like Sirius, this is not gonna work at all, even with 2 Scotland Yards. And now when we are nearly broke the poor Merlots, do we need such costly investmeent in future espionage?
I would say let us have a GA, which will save us 2 or 3 turns in anarchy (we need Emantipation and Nationalism for sure + some other nice civics to be decided), give us immediate boost now when it seems we are racing to kill-off the Merlots at least in time with Sirius killing Mavs. Then we will have our army adequate some 10 turns earlier, we will have our economics better some 10 turns earlier, will conquer MHI some 10 turns earlier, will have our next GS some 10 turns earlier (Pacifism bonus + GA bonus + a lot of spies specialist during the Golden Age) to use him for whatever we may decide a bit later and so on... The snowball effect in its purest form.

So, please team, vote!

 

[Sommerswerd]

thanks for posting the poll

My thinking is that if we need a Golden Age very badly, then we can use the Great Merchant we already have. Great Merchants are easier to replace because you can use Caste system to run unlimited Merchants. You cant run unlimited spies with Any civic so they are harder to get.

Also, we can build a Market (allows 2 Merchants) and a Apothecary (also allows 2 Merchants) to run 4 Merchants to get another Great Merchant, whereas we only get to run 1 spy with a court house, and 2 spies with a jail. So even with jail/courthouse (300 total) versus Grocer/Market(300 total), it is much harder to get a Spy, that is why we should not use it on a GA, use the Merchant instead if we must have a GA. I guess we could build Security Bureau though to add 2 more spies, but this means building another building... a more expensive building at that (220, so 340 total for Security Beareau/Jail versus 150 each for Market and Grocer).

Plus, powerful espy has been our trademark since the beginning... we should always try to enhance and cultivate it.

Lastly, with a GA we may pass Sirius in score, which we may not necessarily want to do just yet, as it may make us a target, and antagonize Sirius, just as we try to draw them closer to us as the ETTT ends. On the other hand, if Sirius breaks with us, and we are the score leader, it will be difficult to convince others to join us to defeat the #2 in score when we are #1.

 

[2metraninja]

My thinking is that if we need a Golden Age very badly, then we can use the Great Merchant we already have. Great Merchants are easier to replace because you can use Caste system to run unlimited Merchants. You cant run unlimited spies with Any civic so they are harder to get.

Also, we can build a Market (allows 2 Merchants) and a Apothecary (also allows 2 Merchants) to run 4 Merchants to get another Great Merchant, whereas we only get to run 1 spy with a court house, and 2 spies with a jail. So even with jail/courthouse versus Grocer/Market, it is much harder to get a Spy, that is why we should not use it on a GA, use the Merchant instead if we must have a GA.

Absolutely correct, but we need the Great Merchant for the 1500+ gold to upgrade most of our army. We need strong army and we need it now to capture MHI and be on par with Sirius.

Lastly, with a GA we may pass Sirius in score, which we may not necessarily want to do just yet, as it may make us a target, and antagonize Sirius, just as we try to draw them closer to us as the ETTT ends. On the other hand, if Sirius breaks with us, and we are the score leader, it will be difficult to convince others to join us to defeat the #2 in score when we are #1.

No way our GA to put us on No.1 in score, as it only increases money and production, not population or territory. Also, due to our drafting and slaving we will drop even from No.2

Plus, powerful espy has been our trademark since the beginning... we should always try to enhance and cultivate it.

Now thats good argument. But we have also tradition in being not the smartest, but the strongest and fiercest fighters, and we can make us No.1 in army again with GA from our Great Spy and the money from our Great Merchant.

As a compromise, I think we can launch immediately GA with our Merchant, switch civics, put a lot of Merchants to achieve another Great Merchant in the GA or shortly after it, which we can use to get the 1500 gold and upgrade our army just before we launch our attack on MHI.

 

[damnrunner]

I think we use the GM we have for gold. We won't be able to produce another GM for a while (even in caste) and I'd rather run slavery (for whipping new cities) or even serfdom to speed up construction of needed improvements.

If we do go for a GA I say use the spy. But the timing is not ideal. We have a lot of underdeveloped cities and a Golden Age 10 or 20 turns from now when these cites have grown larger will be far more powerful. That said, now is a critical point were an influx of production/commerce would be huge. Even more useful would be the ability to swap in and out of some key civics (slave and draft rush).

 

[damnrunner]

@sommers - a GA will not impact our score. Score is pop+territory+tech+wonders. Having a bigger econ or production does not factor into this.

 

[damnrunner]

I did a quick count and it looks like we have about 110 in population right now. So a GA should generate somewhere around +60-80 base commerce and +40-60 base hammers. That should put things in better perspective as to how much potential gain there is.

This is a pretty good boost, but the +30 esp for the rest of the game would cancel out the commerce boost. The gain in production though could be quite significant.

I am leaning GA right now primarily for the civics changing options. I think with some clever micro we could really leverage this at a critical point in the game. I won't be voting until at least tomorrow to see what other arguments people make.

 

[Sommerswerd]

This is a pretty good boost, but the +30 esp for the rest of the game would cancel out the commerce boost. The gain in production though could be quite significant.

It will actually end up being over +60, because since the second Scotland Yard will be in our second Espionage Center we will get a Security bureau there and a Intelligence Agency too. With a second Scotland Yard, these will add another 30 points to the espy pool... not to mention that the Jail and the Intel Agency will add another +30 on top of that. So with Scotland Yard, our second espy center could well end up producing over 100 per turn, and that is without even running the slider.

Absolutely correct, but we need the Great Merchant for the 1500+ gold to upgrade most of our army. We need strong army and we need it now to capture MHI and be on par with Sirius.

I agree, I also wanted the use the Great Merchant for a trade mission, but it seemed you thought it was of top importance to get a GA, while I thought it was of top importance to get another Scotland Yard... I thought that this would be a comprimise that would allow us to do both... Spy for Scotland Yard and Merchant for GA.

As a compromise, I think we can launch immediately GA with our Merchant, switch civics, put a lot of Merchants to achieve another Great Merchant in the GA or shortly after it, which we can use to get the 1500 gold and upgrade our army just before we launch our attack on MHI.

I like this plan, but we just need to decide on the civics... A Golden Age means there is no anarchy when changing Civics, right? So we can change multiple Civics at once.

Obviously to rush out another Merchant we must use Caste System, and probably Pacifism as well to maximize points, or do we keep Theocracy for the units we are drafting? Also, obviously we need to keep Despotism so that we can keep forcing Merlot to stay in Despotism for our espionage plan to come to fruition. And we need to keep Nationalism for Drafting, right? So do we go with Free Market for the additional trade route Gold or do we use Mercantilism in combo with Caste for the free extra Specialist and thus faster Great Merchant? We want to try to squeeze out the great Merchant before the GA ends so we can switch out of Caste, Despotism, Mercantilism and Pacifism without Anarchy right before we Invade Merlot. Is that right?

 

[2metraninja]

If we do go for a GA ... the timing is not ideal. We have a lot of underdeveloped cities and a Golden Age 10 or 20 turns from now when these cites have grown larger will be far more powerful.

Yes, it is true, but:

I am leaning GA right now primarily for the civics changing options.

Me too, as we all agree that we need strong military and we need it now. And this military can be achieved quickly primarily trough civics and we need GA to switch those civics without losing 3 turns in anarchy. Even to avoid the 3 turns of anarchy is well worth the burnt great preson.

A Golden Age means there is no anarchy when changing Civics, right? So we can change multiple Civics at once.

Absolute correct. + even change religion at the same turn.

Obviously to rush out another Merchant we must use Caste System, and probably Pacifism as well to maximize points, or do we keep Theocracy for the units we are drafting? Also, obviously we need to keep Despotism so that we can keep forcing Merlot to stay in Despotism for our espionage plan to come to fruition. And we need to keep Nationalism for Drafting, right? So do we go with Free Market for the additional trade route Gold or do we use Mercantilism in combo with Caste for the free extra Specialist and thus faster Great Merchant? We want to try to squeeze out the great Merchant before the GA ends so we can switch out of Caste, Despotism, Mercantilism and Pacifism without Anarchy right before we Invade Merlot. Is that right?

All good and correct thoughts. Argee.

About Mercantilism/Free market dilemma - usually I would go with Free market, but as you pointed out, Merkantilism will help us with the next Great Merchant. Then before the GA ends, we can switch back to the more beneficial Free Market.

We won't be able to produce another GM for a while (even in caste) and I'd rather run slavery (for whipping new cities)

I think more and more that we must use the GM for a GA and then try to have this next Great Merchant with Caste+Pacifism+Merkantilism during the GA and just then switch out to Slavery. We will have our time to slave buildings/units and we wont lose bonus commerce/production during the GA from the slaved citizens.

 

[2metraninja]

So for the record, I prefer we to launch our GA immediately with our Great Merchant to be able to switch civics.

In the turn discussion thread I pointed out what I think we should do with our GA

 

[nabaxo]

This golden age deal is great. But can't we use the next great person we get for that? I mean we do have two valid uses besides golden ages for our great people.

 

[2metraninja]

I think we must start GA immediately and use any future GPs to any goal we find appropriate at the moment, but we need GA now.

 

[Sommerswerd]

So for the record, I prefer we to launch our GA immediately with our Great Merchant to be able to switch civics.

I agree, as long as we are using the Merchant for it... I guess we would have to to launch it immediately (because we don't have the Spy yet).

As for Civics, I want Despot, Nationhood (for +25% and Drafting, plus we need the +2 from Barracks in Otreta), Caste, Mercantilism and Pacifism. But Im OK with starting the GA now

.

 

[nabaxo]

Oh yeah, a GA should actually speed up the spy even.

 

[damnrunner]

I would like to request that we don't start the GA yet as this poll should probably still be considered to be open.

Right now we are discussing using the GM to do the GA and not the GS. My instinct is still to go with the GS for a GA and to use the GM for $.

I have not yet voted as I want more info on the GM for GA plan. But as it stands I would vote for the GS to be used for a GA which would make that option the winner in this poll.

 

[2metraninja]

Oh yeah, a GA should actually speed up the spy even.

Yes, it will be born in 2 turns

 

[2metraninja]

Sorry damnrunner, since the vote was opened, there have been some extraordinary things - Q capturing Mavs capitol and we realizing how close to eliminating Mavs Sirius are, so I changed my mind and not much agreed with Captain Sommerswerd, but realized we dont have 6 more turns to wait for the GSpy to launch our GA and just fired it up with our available GM.

 

[Sommerswerd]

What civics did we end up using?

 

[2metraninja]

Took your preferences Sommers, as they were ok with my plan too.