What tech obsoletes my Preatorians?

BundtCake

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Hey all,

I'm currently rocking the world with Rome on Noble in the 1700's with Preatorians... I researched gunpowder, and sadly, I think I obsoleted them - sigh - :cry: goodbye City Raider Promotion.

Confirm that reasearching Gunpowder obsoleted my melee unit...

'Cake
 
IIRC civil service + machinery (macemen) obsoletes praetorians
so does Chemistry (grenadiers), gunpowder on its on doesn't.

'Ya know, I think it was Chemistry. Rome can have both Macemen and Preatorians (at the same time) - they're not mutually exclusive.
 
Hey all,

I'm currently rocking the world with Rome on Noble in the 1700's with Preatorians... I researched gunpowder, and sadly, I think I obsoleted them - sigh - :cry: goodbye City Raider Promotion.

Confirm that reasearching Gunpowder obsoleted my melee unit...

'Cake

Upgrade them to Grenadiers and you will keep city raider!
 
Upgrade them to Grenadiers and you will keep city raider!

Oh yeah dude. That's what I did. Except I should have cranked out a pile of them prior to obsoleting them. Next time! :cool:

I think I wanted Chemisty so that I could build Frigates to protect ferrying my Army of Darkness to Russia. :king:
 
Or, if you're in a peaceful space, hold out for infantry. CR3 infantry are awesome, and the tech is right in a line you'd probably want to research anyway.
 
Obsoleting them?? You mean you can't build anymore? Or you can no longer use them? If you research the next tech, then I think you can upgrade them all, and still keep all of your current promotions.
 
Obsoleting them?? You mean you can't build anymore? Or you can no longer use them? If you research the next tech, then I think you can upgrade them all, and still keep all of your current promotions.

Sorry, I wasn't clear - by obsoleting them I meant that I could no longer build them. But yes, I have upgraded them to Grenadiers - but I hear that I should hold out for Infantry next time.

'Cake
 
Hey all,

I'm currently rocking the world with Rome on Noble in the 1700's with Preatorians... I researched gunpowder, and sadly, I think I obsoleted them - sigh - :cry: goodbye City Raider Promotion.

Confirm that reasearching Gunpowder obsoleted my melee unit...

'Cake

Crossbow kills Preatorians because +50% bonus against melee units.
 
Crossbow kills Preatorians because +50% bonus against melee units.

How long does it take to build Crossbows? and now How long does it take to build Praets? I seriously don't know, as I haven't played civ since before the last ALC, but I think it was like 70-45. AIs don't use crossbows well, anyways.
 
waiting for infantery takes too long...
 
I'm currently rocking the world with Rome on Noble in the 1700's with Preatorians... I researched gunpowder, and sadly, I think I obsoleted them - sigh - :cry: goodbye City Raider Promotion.

Confirm that reasearching Gunpowder obsoleted my melee unit...

"Obsolete" can mean three things:

1) You can no longer build the unit
2) You can still build the unit, but you can also build other units that perform the same task more efficiently.
3) Your existing units are no longer effective in their former role owing to enemy technology.

Case (1) happens when you can build all of the new units the old one could possibly upgrade to. For example, Archers can become Longbowmen or Crossbowmen. When you can build both Longbowmen and Crossbowmen, you can no longer build Archers. Because some units require resources, this is assessed on a city-by-city basis. For example, even if you have the technology for both Crossbowmen and Longbowmen, you will still be able to build Archers in a city not connected to Iron. This is often a source of confusion, so double check with the Civilopedia on what units can upgrade to and what resources those upgrades require.

Case (2) is a function of the various strengths and skills of particular units. For example, Spearmen are effectively obsolete once you have Elephants. Even though you can still build Spearmen, an Elephant is just more effective at almost any task for which you would want a Spearman. Consult the Civilopedia for the details.

Case (3) is also function of unit strengths and roles. Praetorians, for example, are strictly obsoleted by Macemen and Crossbowmen, as they are the inferior combatant on almost any terrain. However, Praetorians are also partially obsoleted by enemy Longbowmen. Even though a Praetorian is superior on open ground, they are most useful for attacking cities, where a Longbowman enjoys significant defensive bonuses. Once again, studying the Civilopedia for specific details after learning the general mechanics is your best bet at this stage.
 
"Obsolete" can mean three things:

1) You can no longer build the unit
2) You can still build the unit, but you can also build other units that perform the same task more efficiently.
3) Your existing units are no longer effective in their former role owing to enemy technology.

Case (1) happens when you can build all of the new units the old one could possibly upgrade to. For example, Archers can become Longbowmen or Crossbowmen. When you can build both Longbowmen and Crossbowmen, you can no longer build Archers. Because some units require resources, this is assessed on a city-by-city basis. For example, even if you have the technology for both Crossbowmen and Longbowmen, you will still be able to build Archers in a city not connected to Iron. This is often a source of confusion, so double check with the Civilopedia on what units can upgrade to and what resources those upgrades require.

Case (2) is a function of the various strengths and skills of particular units. For example, Spearmen are effectively obsolete once you have Elephants. Even though you can still build Spearmen, an Elephant is just more effective at almost any task for which you would want a Spearman. Consult the Civilopedia for the details.

Case (3) is also function of unit strengths and roles. Praetorians, for example, are strictly obsoleted by Macemen and Crossbowmen, as they are the inferior combatant on almost any terrain. However, Praetorians are also partially obsoleted by enemy Longbowmen. Even though a Praetorian is superior on open ground, they are most useful for attacking cities, where a Longbowman enjoys significant defensive bonuses. Once again, studying the Civilopedia for specific details after learning the general mechanics is your best bet at this stage.


Minor point for case (1), longbows don't require iron or copper either.
 
I have played a game as Rome, I had chemistry and was still able to build praetorians. I think riflimen were supposed to obsolete them.
And I'm totally sure of it because i was high on cash and was building praetorians every turn (low cost), promoted them to CR3 (MInstructors are great :lol:) then, upgraded them to grenadiers (can't remember the exact price. 250 gold maybe?).
 
The point in case (1) is that Crossbows require Iron. As Archers can be upgraded to either Longbows or Crossbows, when a city doesn't have access to Iron you can build Longbows and Archers, while in case a city does have access to Iron you could build Longbows and Crossbows but not Archers.


UU obsolence (in the sense that you can't build the UU anymore) doesn't follow the same rule as other unit obsolence.
Normally you can't build a unit when you can build all units that it would upgrade to. As swords upgrade to maces (which are in all cases better than swords, although not sure about the hammers / strength for city attack), as soon as you can build maces you can't build swords anymore. Resources don't play part there, as swords require iron, and maces require copper or iron - thus if you have resources for swords (iron) you can certainly build maces.
Praetorians can be built even when maces are available for building. Why? I guess the reason is that they have the same base strength as mace but lower hammer cost, thus being equal to maces except when fighting melee units (where maces have +50%).
I can't think of any other way than testing to see what obsoletes the UUs in this way.
 
Reading the xml reveals that Praetorians upgrade to maces, grenadiers, and rifleman so the rule stated above still applies. No special UU voodoo going on. This was changed in Warlords (Prats just upgrade to maces in vanilla).
 
It was Rifling that killed your ability to produce Melee units, if I recall correctly.

If you still have a spare Warrior (or Axe or whatever) lying around for city pacification, wait 'till you get your next great general. Use the Great General on the Warrior (on a tile by himself so he doesn't share the XP) to get all of the city raider promotions and then use the free upgrade feature of the Great General unit.

I just got myself a City Raider III Infantry with 2 moves that way. Darn thing just about took out the Zulu nation by himself (with a little Trebuchet support).
 
You can build maces/praets with chemistry. As Cabert said, with a lot of gold, CR3 Grenadiers are amazing.

I believe you can't build riflemen at them moment.

Reading the xml reveals that Praetorians upgrade to maces, grenadiers, and rifleman so the rule stated above still applies.

It looks like if you don't have all tech needed to build all possible upgrade path of a unit, then you can still build it. That's why I believe Galileo don't have rifling yet.

I wonder if resource also have such effect, thus by temporary trading away oil (or may be it's wrong resource, since I haven't play for a while), we'll loose ability to build gunship, thus falling back to horse unit. That will allow us later to have additional gunship that have promotion that's only available to horse unit.
 
It looks like if you don't have all tech needed to build all possible upgrade path of a unit, then you can still build it. That's why I believe Galileo don't have rifling yet.

that's exactly it. And that's why I never traded for rifling :D .

I wonder if resource also have such effect, thus by temporary trading away oil (or may be it's wrong resource, since I haven't play for a while), we'll loose ability to build gunship, thus falling back to horse unit. That will allow us later to have additional gunship that have promotion that's only available to horse unit.
What kind of horse unit promotion do you value so high?
 
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