What's going on???

Lungfish

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
6
I got the new BTS expansion, loaded it, and have been nothing but frustrated since. I was previously playing Warlords at Monarch level with random leaders and maps and winning (and losing) often enough for it to be the right level for me.

But now I'm unable to progress to the Modern Age even when I play two levels lower, at Noble. I've tried a variety of different maps, different leaders and different strategies. It doesn't matter. After a while I just go down under a sea of enemy units.

In my latest game it is 290 BC (Marathon, Noble, Terra) and I have Charlemagne. I have expanded to four cities and am just able to squeak by at 50% tech. My opponents are rocketing along just fine - Napoleon has 8 cities, Boadicea 7, Wang Kon 6 and so on. Since I just researched Code of Laws and got the Confucianism shrine I know that none of the others have built courthouses or markets.

How is it possible for an enemy nation to have twice the number of cities I do and not get crushed by the maintenance burden?

Seriously, WTF?
 
they get a bonus, depending on difficulty

on noble i think the playing field is about even, i could be wrong though.
 
The AI builds many more units in BTS than it did before, and is more aggressive.

The AI also like to run very low Science % and then trade technologies to one another.
 
I've restarted the game with the intention to do nothing but see if I could build 8 cities before 290 BC.

Despite my excellent relations with Boadicea she declared war on me and, once again, my Civ goes down under a crashing wave of enemy units - this time Gallic Swordsmen. Boadicea was also adjacent to the French, so I have to assume that Napoleon had many more units, making me the easier target.

My choices right now look like either expanding like crazy and making do with a 30% tech slider (no, I am not exaggerating) or going for a higher tech and watching my competitors build double my number of cities. Either path I take leads to my Civ getting crushed before the Age of Gunpowder.

So what I want to hear - especially from the BTS cheerleaders and those who are playing the game at a very high difficulty setting - is what do I need to do to survive? I've played over 10 games so far and STILL haven't had a chance to build a Corporation.
 
I've restarted the game with the intention to do nothing but see if I could build 8 cities before 290 BC.

Despite my excellent relations with Boadicea she declared war on me and, once again, my Civ goes down under a crashing wave of enemy units - this time Gallic Swordsmen. Boadicea was also adjacent to the French, so I have to assume that Napoleon had many more units, making me the easier target.

My choices right now look like either expanding like crazy and making do with a 30% tech slider (no, I am not exaggerating) or going for a higher tech and watching my competitors build double my number of cities. Either path I take leads to my Civ getting crushed before the Age of Gunpowder.

So what I want to hear - especially from the BTS cheerleaders and those who are playing the game at a very high difficulty setting - is what do I need to do to survive? I've played over 10 games so far and STILL haven't had a chance to build a Corporation.

First. 30% slider is not uncommon for Specialist/Hybrid Economies. What matters is beaker output. (How many beakers is your output?).
 
Indeed. With enough scientists you can maintain a tech lead with the slider at 0%.

Also, Boudicca is one of "those" leaders who are generally unpleasant and like to attack you. Try playing games with opponents like Gandhi or Mansa Musa.
 
Indeed. With enough scientists you can maintain a tech lead with the slider at 0%.

Also, Boudicca is one of "those" leaders who are generally unpleasant and like to attack you. Try playing games with opponents like Gandhi or Mansa Musa.

No MANSA MUSA! This !@#$%&* always keep tech lead and then vassalize himself to the strongest CIV in power! :sad:
 
No MANSA MUSA! This !@#$%&* always keep tech lead and then vassalize himself to the strongest CIV in power! :sad:

Hah, well, alternatively some other non-aggressive civ.
 
Indeed. With enough scientists you can maintain a tech lead with the slider at 0%.

Are you able to do that before 300 B.C.? If so, I'd like to know how.
 
In my latest game it is 290 BC (Marathon, Noble, Terra) and I have Charlemagne. I have expanded to four cities and am just able to squeak by at 50% tech. My opponents are rocketing along just fine - Napoleon has 8 cities, Boadicea 7, Wang Kon 6 and so on. Since I just researched Code of Laws and got the Confucianism shrine I know that none of the others have built courthouses or markets.

50% tech rate with only 4 cities is really bad, you need to either cottage spam more or whip for specialists. Over-expansion is not necessarily bad either, as long as you don't go under 40% tech slider using a CE, you should be able to bounce back.
 
Lungfish,

1- Welcome to CFC :)
2- Try running a game with the option "No Technology Brokering". I'm not sure the exact benefits of this, but it stops the AI trading a lot.
 
Also, with BtS the AIs watch the "power" graph the way a human player would. If they see that you have a pitiful military, they will either blackmail you or just attack.

Basically, what you are seeing is that the AIs are finally halfway as good as a human player. They used to be pretty stupid.

In summary:
* Use "forbid technology brokering" or the AIs will effectively team up against you in the tech race. With this rule turned on, the tech race is much more fair.
* Don't let yourself get too weak militarily unless you want a war. If you can make Infantry but only have Longbowmen in all your cities, the AIs with Riflemen will (correctly) conclude that your tech advantage just makes you a juicy target. While the Power graph (which is just the total of the strengths of all your units) isn't a great measure of actual military strength, it's a good enough approximation and it's the one that other players (human and AI) can see at all times.
* Don't obsess about how high your science slider is, look at how long it is taking you to research techs. Research buildings cost maintenance which is affected by inflation, but if you produce 50% more research at the cost of moving your slider down from 70% to 60% you have still actually increased your research per turn by 9/7. By the late game a well-developed economy might be running at only 30/10/10 but still be churning out a new tech every 4 turns, and that is fine.

Also, remember that Noble is the "even up" difficulty level. Levels higher than that make things easier for the AI than for you, and levels below that make things easier for you than the AI. So if you are winning on Noble in BtS, it means that your human cleverness is putting you ahead of a large pack of AIs that are almost as good as humans and playing by the same rules.
 
Lungfish,

1- Welcome to CFC :)
2- Try running a game with the option "No Technology Brokering". I'm not sure the exact benefits of this, but it stops the AI trading a lot.

First off--Your name ROCKS. Screw the Sharif if he doesn't like it...

Secondly, No Tech Brokering means that no Civ can trade away a tech that they haven't researched themselves. This means that if Boudica trades for Monarchy, she cannot then turn to another civ and trade Monarchy to them for something else.

It's a great addition, but it does give a very large edge to the human player. It means that you can monopolize key techs and trade them for several others... But, eh, whatever. It's just a game.
 
First off--Your name ROCKS. Screw the Sharif if he doesn't like it...

Why thank you! :goodjob: I'm a pretty big fan of the Clash... but you've probably guessed that by now...

Secondly, No Tech Brokering means that no Civ can trade away a tech that they haven't researched themselves. This means that if Boudica trades for Monarchy, she cannot then turn to another civ and trade Monarchy to them for something else.

I knew it was something along those lines. I've probably read this before from
someone else, but I forgot... :sad:

It's a great addition, but it does give a very large edge to the human player. It means that you can monopolize key techs and trade them for several others... But, eh, whatever. It's just a game.

Being the level I am, I need all the edge I can get... :mischief:
 
If you're really desperate, try toggling "No technology Trading" on, I hope you can guess teh function of that one...
Also, try to axerush if you starting pos allows it... Pick a leader that starts with mining, start by teching BW, find and settle bronze, pump out some axes, and start the slaughter. You can efficiently do this to Boudica aswell if that ***** is annoying you.
 
Lungfish... I've had a similar experience. I was also playing on Monarch and dropped back to Noble to get the feel for the expansion and have had my a$$ handed to me a few times. I won my last game and am looking good in my current.

I suspect that you, like me, have fallen prey to expectations for the AI. With BTS, the AI operate differently so playing in a similar way to Warlords won't achieve the same result.

I DON'T recommend turning off Tech Brokering. If you liked the game with the rules as they were, don't screw with the rule set because you aren't winning. Who cares if you are playing on Sid or Settler as long as you are having fun and getting challenged. I can't yet beat BTS on Monarch - I'd say don't get hung up on what level you are playing and assume it's a new game and you have to figure out the AI and adjust to its playstyle.

Good luck and have fun!

Cheers.
 
You also picked one of the worst leaders in the game. Charlemagne blows. Just terrible early on, and you need to reach Engineering to make him even average. Let's give him a more in depth lookover:

Imperialistic trait. Real dud. The settler bonus is much, much weaker than most people would think just by looking at the numbers due to its funky mechanics. The great general emergence bonus only does anything if you are fighting. It sounds like you don't fight unless you get attacked, at which point you lose anyway.

Protective trait. Can be good, but not in conjunction with what else Charlemagne has. He has no great unique gunpowder or archery unit to be beefed up by protective. Cheap buildings? Walls suck, and your games thus far don't reach the point where there are castles (the engineering tech). Better defenders? Who cares when you don't have enough tech to modernize them?

Unique building: Rathaus, a courthouse on steroids. Good building, but somehow I don't think you're getting to Code of Laws and having enough time to spam them.

Unique unit: Landsknecht, an improved pikeman. Shows up at the same time as castles. Isn't even that good. Yeah.

Get a better leader. How do you want to play, peacefully, or violently? Do you want to stick to BtS leaders? I can give recommendations and so can other people, but those things would be good to know beforehand.
 
Lungfish... I've had a similar experience. I was also playing on Monarch and dropped back to Noble to get the feel for the expansion and have had my a$$ handed to me a few times. I won my last game and am looking good in my current.

I suspect that you, like me, have fallen prey to expectations for the AI. With BTS, the AI operate differently so playing in a similar way to Warlords won't achieve the same result.

Its certainly a possibility, but I have played BtS to get a feel for it. The AI makes smart moves, founding cities to wall you off and always on the lookout for weak players to kill. That's cool.

What seems to get me is the paradox of having a large army, large number of cities and still maintaining tech parity. If I have a big empire with a big army, then I find myself falling behind the tech race fast. If I try to keep up in tech (which is my tendency) I end up getting absolutely crushed.

Aggressive civs seem impossible to deal with. In a recent game as Mehmed II the Ottomans had the Mongolians next door. I converted them to my religion, maintained Pleased relations with them and even declared war on the Arabs in their support. Then while we were both still at war with Saliman he declared war on me! WTF?
 
Then while we were both still at war with Saliman he declared war on me! WTF?

Happens to the best of us man. One way is to make sure you change the Civs in the game to non aggressive ones when you choose your game settings? (in custom game). I dont do this, because I like the feel of meeting someone I dont know. :)

Can I ask what level you're playing at? I'm a Warlord guy, and sometimes I experience this too. :mad:

What I find it best to do is to try and maintain a good tech rate while every so often pumping out the best unit for the era to try and stay at a reasonable height in the power chart.
 
Top Bottom