What's in the box? - gifting cities

[darski]

I have noticed a few posts recently about the use of gifting the AI with cities. When I want to get rid of a city for whatever reason, I tend to look to the map to see who would benefit least from this particular city or to find the Civ with fewest cities as the giftee.

In one game, I could not trade with the other AI - those fortunate enough to be on the other continent- because they would not build a harbour. so I found one little un-owned square, built a city on it and the harbor and then gave it to the French because they had the fewest cities. If I had tried to keep that city it would have been major war and I would have lost the city and some gold as well.

In one game, I built a city to get some tundra furs but then I managed to get some furs in better land so I didn't need that city and it was annoying the AI. I had squeezed it in on a 3-tile opening. I think I gave that one to the French as well. They were the 'low man in the putty knife factory' in that game.

In my current game, I decided to challenge the French for space on a small island continent but then decided that it was not worth the bother and the risk. In that case, I gave the city to the Vikings which strangely enough seemed to have only one city That seems to have been a good and timely idea because the French were suddenly sniffing around looking for an easy kill to start a war. They decided against the war because my military was large and could defeat them in numbers and strength in any location. if I had left that city on the island, they would have taken it quickly as they had about 7 cities there.

so share your plan for gifting Cities to the AI. it can be more fun than the real game

 

[Loki130]

I once gave a city on the border with an enemy to the weakest neutral civ as a buffer. Very effective, and once I was ready I rolled over the neutral civ.

 

[criminiminal]

i like to gift cities i can't hold only to take them back at a later date.

i also look to see who will benefit the least while benefiting me the most. i like to gift cities to help start wars between to large super powers as well

 

[bryanwallace]

is it a leg tactic to build a few cities-give to a civ a long way away then take them and get techs out of him for peace?

 

[effigy]

I wouldn't have thought they would give you techs for peace if all you did was take a few isolated cities of your own back, would they?

 

[bryanwallace]

agreed.may have to accept gold or someting else

 

[PaperBeetle]

I never remember to try it, but yes it is legal (in the eyes of GOTM and HoF) to gift cities away before a war and then easily recapture them, for the sake of increasing the AI's perception of how much you have damaged it in the war. Bear in mind that if these cities have buildings you risk losing them, and you will also lose 1 citizen per city when you recapture them.

There may be situations in which you actually want AIs to meet each other - most likely you want to arrange a war between them. But in C3C, you can't trade contacts until Printing. Instead, you can gift adjacent cities to the two AI, and they will meet through their touching borders.

I also recall that there is a situation in which the whole population of a city instantly switches to a new nationality. Is that situation during a gift? I need to check... Anyway, if it is, then gifting a city and retaking has the potential to turn it into a slave factory.
Edit: probably the citizens change nationality only during a flip?

 

[bryanwallace]

paper beetle,

when concluding a peace treaty-is the ai willingness to bargain decided on how much you have damaged it?
isnt it based on how much damage you can do to them from the point you are at??

what are the chances of losing buildings in recaptures?

 

[darski]

It is damage that you have done that seems to decide Negotiations. Once you have taken one city, the civ is generally ready for peace in the early game.

Now some Civs' get completely suicidal and it doesn't matter what you have done or will do; they will not talk or will not give due measure for peace.

 

[TheOverseer714]

They stay the new civs nationality. After we gave up in SGOTM13, I played wiith the save by gifting the same town over and over again and the 1 citizen was Russian, Byzantine, Dutch, etc. when I recaptured it.

 

[undertoad]

I've often been tempted to use darski's trick of building a harbor city and gifting it. The silly buggers take so long to build harbors, it's infuriating not being able to trade - especially when their coastline is accessible through a coast/sea square, rather than only through ocean, so that trade should be possible relatively early (i.e. before whatever that tech is - Navigation or Magnetism).

Not sure why the AI is so reluctant to build harbours. My early harbours are generally necessary to enable growth of a badly-placed coastal city I've taken over from some other AI (few foody land squares) - nothing to do with veterancy or trade, they become useful for that later. The AI certainly builds plenty of badly-placed (in terms of food) cities, so harbors should be a pretty sure bet for it.

 

[Bucephalus]

Something to bear in mind is that, when gifting a city any units within that city are transported directly to your Capital. There are occasions when this is very useful indeed.

 

[bryanwallace]

but doesnt gifting a harbour to an ai and trading mean..

you cant then attack til the deal is over and also means you have to be careful that a war with someone else breaks out that could block the trade-trading over sea can be very dangerous for your rep..

how does a harbour help growth?

 

[bryanwallace]

sorry am i misunderstanding this-surely building them a harbour in one of your cities a long way from the civs main cities its any good as it wont be connected to the luxs etc you want to trade for?

 

[darski]

# bryan... not every game has to include unending warfare.

in the game where I built and gifted the harbour city, the land was very well developed but neither the French nor the Chinese had built a harbour anywhere. i found them very late in the game really, a few suicide galleys went out at first and then I did a circumnavigation of the land to see what I could see before I made any decisions.

I meant it when I said I found a 1-tile spot that was free. everything else around it was spoken for and developed.

I had been very busy clearing my own continent so finding them had not been a priority.

 

[bryanwallace]

darski i understand but:

1.someone else might start a war with you and block it off.

2.even if you give them a harbour dont they still need a harbour where there main cities/resources are?

 

[Bucephalus]

2.even if you give them a harbour dont they still need a harbour where there main cities/resources are?

They/you don't even need a harbour at all, merely be connected to one by road - anyone's harbour will do, as long as you are both at peace with the third party.

 

[darski]

darski i understand but:

1.someone else might start a war with you and block it off.

2.even if you give them a harbour don't they still need a harbour where there main cities/resources are?

I am afraid that I cannot figure out what situation you are imagining.

It was a Pangaea map that ended up with 2 huge islands. I can't remember who was on my island but the French and Chinese started on their own land mass.

Very late (relatively speaking) in the game, I found them -on their one and only land mass -as 2 of the remaining 3 Civs in the game. It is true the Chinese might have started a war but their intended target would have been me. That would not affect the harbour.

Their main (only) cities and (only) resources were all on this same island. I truly, truly, truly did mean it when I said a 1-tile square that was not spoken for. Everything around it was spoken for. When I built my city I did not even get 9 tiles from it.

Aside from the fact that I really did not want to deal with a city over there, the French were amassing on my border. it was the smart move to give it away.

BTW, I don't know if this matters but it was a Vanilla game.

 

[undertoad]

darski i understand but:

1.someone else might start a war with you and block it off.

2.even if you give them a harbour dont they still need a harbour where there main cities/resources are?

Hi Bryan

On Q2: you're right, a harbour not connected by road to what you want to trade from them will be no good. As I understand it from my own empire, you only have a resource available if it's connected by road to your capital - and you can only buy another civ's resources if you have a road or sea connection to their capital (i.e. harbour has a road to their capital, without having to pass through territory of anyone you or they are at war with). The resource won't even be "theirs" to trade at all unless it itself is connected with their capital.

(This rule also comes and bites me when invading civs on another continent. I take over a few coastal cities, and get a shock - they're all miserable, and I can't build any of the nice units I've researched - e.g. Musketmen. What's going on? No Harbour: so they can't get any of my Saltpetre, or any of my luxuries. So this makes a difference to my strategy when doing an amphibious invasion - I try to go for a city which already has a Harbour, or will be able to build one pretty quickly).

The other condition with harbours is that you must have the tech (Map Making, Navigation or Magnetism) for the sea-route to their harbour to be usable. More advanced techs are required for more "dangerous" sea routes (Ocean > Sea > Coast). This is infuriating when I finally reach one of their harbours with one of my primitive boats through a perfectly safe 3 or 4-move "jump" over some sea/ocean, ending the turn in "safe" water, but still can't trade with them! It seems that the Great Lighthouse, which allows you to end your turn in more dangerous waters than your current tech-level allows, doesn't enable trade through those waters as well (correct me if I'm wrong, it's what I remember)

But it's also surprising how well-developed AI civs can become - roads all over the place - before they'll build harbours; so the harbour becomes the one missing link for trade to become possible. (In answer to your earlier question, a harbour allows the city to get +1 food from every sea square it uses - this is why I build them early; I'm very fussy about city placement, but cities I take over from my early, small neighbours are often placed with no chance of growth without the +1 from the sea a harbour provides).

In answer to Q1, about having trade interrupted; this hasn't happened to me yet, though I can't speak from long experience. Apparently if the trade gets interrupted through "someone else's fault", you don't lose reputation. I can't remember where I saw this info; it was in one of those threads/articles (maybe in the War Academy) where people research things meticulously.

For example, if you sold your only harbour while engaged in a deal where you give gold per turn or resources per turn (assuming that the trade relies on a sea route), you'd be breaking the deal. Same if you declared war on the civ you're trading with, or any civ whose territory the trade route has to pass through. But if it's their action that makes the trade break down, it's their rep that suffers.

(I'm not speaking from experience here, so if I'm wrong, correct me anyone).

 

[Othniel]

It seems that the Great Lighthouse, which allows you to end your turn in more dangerous waters than your current tech-level allows, doesn't enable trade through those waters as well (correct me if I'm wrong, it's what I remember)

The GLight does enable trade through sea tiles. Just make sure there are no ocean tiles blocking the route.

[snip, snip] Apparently if the trade gets interrupted through "someone else's fault", you don't lose reputation. [snip, snip]

Depends.

Say you are trading a luxury to some civ. Then, perhaps with a little motivational action from you , your trading partner gets fed up and attacks you. In this case your rep is fine.

Same thing, you are trading a luxury to some civ. Only this time, a barb ship sits on the trade route at a bottleneck where the route is only one tile wide. Or a third-party civ attacks your trading partner and pillages the road connection to your lands. Or a volcano blows up in neutral territory and your nearby road gets Pompeii-ed. Tough luck mate, you just busted your trade rep.