What's the best new UU?

[bonafide11]

Has it been confirmed that the Carrack can carry settlers?

 

[Phoenix1595]

Although I voted for Landsknecht, I think the Dog Soldiers will be fairly impressive (especially since I foresee myself playing Sitting Bull for my first BtS game).

I am in the camp that believes the carracks will not get settlers, so I think they will not be strong, like the Dutch East Indiaman.

Nothing else really gets my jollies, although I want to see the Ballista Elephant in action (elephants are fantastic, in general).

 

[DrewBledsoe]

To me ANY elephant UU is dodgy, because on huge maps, its probably only 1/6 games I get Ivory. And if you don't have it yourself, the ai wants generally 2 other resources plus your arm and leg, and the first born child of everyone of your populace....(oh but of course they'll trade it to a "cautious" fellow ai for a plate of rice..... )

Therefore it sounds nice, but is hugely dependant on circumstances, and even then they cost almost twice as much as the humble spearman, who will dispose of them at around a 50/50 rate, so Im afraid nil pts from me.....

If they can be built without Ivory though (magic elephants of course), then they become a better proposition.

 

[bonafide11]

I have Ivory in probably at least four out of five games. It's rare for me to not have Ivory by the time of Construction. If my UU depended on Ivory, I'd make sure to get it... If there was any Ivory on my continent, I'd get it by any means necessary.

 

[braindrain]

is it really true that holkans need bw tech too?!?! this totally makes thim WTH useless...this only gives them immune to first strikes wich is really weak... i want my vote back! lol

sure letting em come out so fast makes them mighty powerful, but making them wait for bw totally gimps them.

their window of true effectiveness is relatively small because as soon as opponents learn bw, they are gonna have superior axemen.

the only thing they really have going for them is quick deployment, and if you make bw a prereq, then you take that away and are left with a crappy unit that might be able to kill an archer easier...maybe

 

[Thedrin]

Andy06r:
Remember - caravels can't carry settlers but the carrack will be able too.

This hasn't been confirmed and I doubt that carracks will be able to do so - it has only been confirmed that carracks can carry military units beyond those that a caravel can carry.

There isn't an effective counter to carracks before astronomy militarily so you could also use the new blockading tactics and do some medival dropping without having to rely on the outdated gallies.

Carracks are equally strong as caravels so they don't have much significant advantage in any individual naval battles.

Bonafide11:
I have Ivory in probably at least four out of five games.

You don't play continent type maps, do you? In my experience elephants are one of the resources whose placement is restricted to a single continent.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

.................You don't play continent type maps, do you? In my experience elephants are one of the resources whose placement is restricted to a single continent.

Exactly, well put. Also, I play always huge maps and sometimes completely random or other times fractal, around 50/50. Ivory is pretty much solely restricted to the tropical and equatorial regions (the middle band of the map in other words). So even if it's on your continent, if you start out down south or up north, you can basically forget about it, until you are rich enough to take over half a continent, and not suprisingly, then you don't need it

 

[PMabey]

"The Ballista Elephant automatically targets mounted units outside of city walls" Does that mean if it attacks a city WITHOUT walls it will auto target mounted units in there.
I'm really not liking the Khmer so far, just thinking of ways they may be better.

 

[Antilogic]

@Polycrates: I'm giving you a quite belated face for your post on about impis. Greatest thing I've read tonight.

I'm skeptical about the Khmer UU as well...and, given that it requires such a rare resource, its benefit doesn't even sound that game-breaking, just a pain. When invading them, I'll make sure to bring extra pikes and leave my cavalry at other borders. Then its neutralized, if they had it in the first place. Are they just not telling us it doesn't require any resources?


The Vulture and the Holkan are getting special attention from me. The Holkan might take the Quecha's place as the preferred early rush unit, and they are even better against archers than Quecha (first strike immunity, same strength). As for the vulture...looks pretty tough. Let's see how they do once I get the game.

I'm somewhat confused on the Oromo warrior, from the BtS info center. It says they have first-level first strike capacity, and then Drill I and II. Do they get an extra first strike over Drill I and II, or just Drill I and II?

The HRE vs. Byzantine UU debate has already been going on, and I don't have anything really new to add. But, I'll side with the Cataphract: I tend to use more crossbows than other players, so I don't expect the Landsknechts to be too much of a problem. But the Cataphracts? They look a little like Conquistadors, but with +20% against everything instead of +50% vs. melee. And their combat bonuses are on a larger base strength, so they improve even more? Score!

 

[Yeekim]

Am I imagining this, or was it confirmed that gunpowder units may take drill upgrades beyond those provided by traits in BtS?

In that case, here I come, queen Boudicca of Ethiopians!

Man. Just imagine it. Early rush to Gunpowder/Nationalism... and then... mass drafting of troops with CG I, Drill II and Combat I. Plus, I am Charismatic.

EDIT: Hm, no CG. Dunno where I took it from. But zafyro below is right nonetheless! That is THE power!

 

[zafyro]

I believe the potenciality of oromo's should be based on the fact that he gains extra promotions that he will keep when upgraded to riffleman or grenadier, other UU's have better atributes (+2 str etc...) but they loose them once updated (it's very sad to upgrade spanish conquistadores into Cavalry).

 

[Arwon]

I might mod the Khmer UU to not require ivory. Being able to build elephants without ivory would be a nice perk.

 

[Pikkis]

Dog soldier attacks with an effective strength of 4 against a defending vulture with an effective strength of 3.43 [= 6/(1 + 1.00 - 0.25)]. 1.00 is dog soldier's melee bonus, 0.25 is the vulture's melee bonus.

Vulture attacks with an effective strength of 6 against a defending dog soldier with an effective strength of 7 [= 4*(1 + 1.00 - 0.25)]. 1.00 is dog soldier's melee bonus, 0.25 is the vulture's melee bonus.

Thanks a lot for correcting me. I've thought unit and promotion benefits much more simple than they in fact are.

But still, as in earlier posts, Dog Soldier has better odds than Vulture in that battle, which means it can be considered as Vulture-killer.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

From this careful analysis, I have determined: Dog Soldiers are by far the best new UU, followed by Cataphracts and Bowmen, then the Holkan, Landknecht and Ballista Elephant.

Excellent analysis on all the UU and your conclusion is spot on except I'd not have the Cataphract as 2nd, but after the Holkan.

In the early stages of a game alot can be decided, the dog soldier gives an attacking option and can totally dominate impis, spears and other axes and thus will be massive in mp.

The bowman will laugh at most attempts of enemy civs to defeat them up until catapults and in mp, catapult stacks can be countered with good use of collateral and promotions. The Holkan gives a decent choking and anti-choke option for mp and eliminates fear of chariot rushes, which is huge.

The carrack. Cross ocean boating options with optics, in multiplayer poor Portugal will be so banned from many games as this early boating option will be absolutely lethal. Portugal will want the colossus for sure as it'll be able to still land people and avoid astro for longer with less penalties and for those who ain't got it, the colossus is awesome.

The Landknecht comes late on, comes in the day of the catapult, which for single-players isn't much to think on as the AI is rubbish in using catapults, but in MP, that Landknecht will be eaten alive, by catapult and crossbow combinations and it isn't hard to get to gunpowder by the time a civ has got to engineering and via a preferred route. It'll be useful, but not overpowering and not as good as the above three UU.

The cataphracts will be a great option, but there are still useful counters, what they give most is an anti-knight option that is particularly mobile to my point of view and if no pikes in sight will do better against longbows than normal knights.

Finally, the elephant with a ballista, it'll depend alot on a not too common resource...

Lastly the uber galleon...well, it still will die horribly to frigates, a short period of naval dominance...and immune to caravel counters...will have some uses, but comparatively limited.

 

[Antilogic]

@kittenOFchaos: I agree with most of your analysis, especially with putting the Landsknechts lower on the list. Probably because I use more crossbows than the average player, and thus am not afraid if my enemy removes his maces and adds more landsknechts...easier crossbow feed.

The bowman strikes me as a more defensive UU. Although it gets a bonus against axes, its strength is still lower (4.5 vs. 5, no terrain or promotions). Cover and Shock both come with Combat I, and the Combat promotions build on a greater base strength for the axemen. Although they are cheaper, you better be ready to take some casualties if you plan to use mostly bowmen against axes. I'd rather have chariot UUs against axemen myself, for the extra mobility they provide.

I personally would switch the places of the Carrack and Cataphract in your listing. I'm guessing the cataphract will work a lot like the Roman Praetorian does--that extra strength will just let it shine over anything else, including the supposed counters (pikes). A Cataphract vs. Pike unpromoted is 50/50, neglecting terrain. And the Cataphract strength bonuses build on a higher base strength, plus they can get Combat I/Shock out the door with Barracks and Stables. I'd say they will be quite powerful in their time, until the new cavalry unit comes along. Of course, we don't know anything about the new cavalry unit, and how long the life of knight UUs will last, so it's still a little bit of a wildcard.

 

[Pikkis]

Oromo Warrior:
Way too late for my impis to care! And slow!

Landsknecht:
Bit too late, pal! Pikemen beat my impis anyway, so it makes no difference, the only problem for Charley is catching them!

From this careful analysis, I have determined: Dog Soldiers are by far the best new UU, followed by Cataphracts and Bowmen, then the Holkan, Landknecht and Ballista Elephant.

Gunpowder doesn't come much after Engineering, but you still think Landsknecht is far better than Oromo Warrior? Rumor says Gunpowder Units can now get Drill promos, which means 10XP Oromo can have 4-7fs and +35% Mounted Units (Formation opens with Drill II) bonus in addition to fs immunity. It can beat even Cataphract and when playing on Marathon speed 1 mov. units are just fine, at least to me. Oromo Warrior doesn't even need resources like Landsknecht. And why do you compare every unit to Impis? They are fast, yes, but Archers of Protective leader are very bad enemy to them, and when your enemy has Axeman, you have to get Chariots, and Horses + Copper/Iron combo isn't within my borders in a lot of games.

Antilogic: 10XP Oromos (Drill IV+Formation) can beat unpromoted Cataphacts as well as 2XP Janissaries (Combat I), and Gunpowder is the next tech from Guilds.

 

[Duncan_Idaho]

Can't agree more, KittenOFchaos.
I hadn't thought much about the Holkans. May be they are gonna rock, can't see them used offensively, may be I'm too much of a newb. But no chariot ursh + expansive + financial on good terrain is like ..woah The dog soldiers are going to be an awesome protection for a stack of swordsmen but with 4 strength I can't see them killing archers.
An early dog soldier rush on a smaller map is gonna rock though

And upgraded cataphracts are going to be a hell do deal with.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

The Lenderpwn is going to pretty insane, since it's only real counter will be Crossbowmen. A stack-o'-Doom of those boys will topple pretty much anything...probably.

 

[Duncan_Idaho]

The Lenderpwn is going to pretty insane, since it's only real counter will be Crossbowmen. A stack-o'-Doom of those boys will topple pretty much anything...probably.

I guess you were referring to the landsknechts. The thing is, siege + knights beats siege + pikes. Yes, it's cool to get 100% vs mellee, sure it's a cool advantage and a cool unit but they aren't gonna be able to turn the tables on a regular attack.

 

[bonafide11]

Nope, I generally don't play Continent maps. Perhaps that's why I don't have problems getting Ivory.