What's the best non-DLC civ for a science victory

[Barth]

A quick background, I've had ciV for a while but am just now really starting to get into it. I'm trying out as many play styles as possible and have done culture, domination, and diplomacy so now it's time for science. I'm working my way up through the difficulties starting with Chieftain and didn't have any difficulties with Prince, so this will be a King level game with Pangea/Standard settings. I've done Egypt/Mongolia/Greece so those are out, and I don't have any of the DLCs so no Babylon and Korea.

I think my short list is the Aztecs, the Iroquois, and Siam. Aztecs have the floating gardens so I can grow easily, and the culture from kills might buy me an extra SP or 2. Iroquois have the longhouse so I can get really good production, or average production and good gold/science from spamming trading posts. Siam's extra food and culture will let me grow faster and buy more SP's.

At least, those are a noobie's thoughts. I'd like to know what more experienced people have to say, especially if I'm completely wrong and overlooked the best science civ.

 

[Martin Alvito]

France and Siam are probably the best choices. France gets through the early game and down the left side of Rationalism the fastest. Siam has both the Legalism trick for free Wats and the ability to heavily leverage Culturals to push Rationalism.

No one else really stands out. The Iroquois build Apollo and parts a bit faster, which is nice but not game-breaking. The Aztecs are well-rounded, but aren't uniquely suited to winning by space.

 

[Barth]

So it sounds like culture is really important to get Rationalism as fast as possible, and food isn't as big of a deal? I think I'll try Siam. When you say Legalism trick I think you mean that I can build Monument + Temple in 4 cities, then pop Legalism and it'll give me 4 Wats? If so it'll take some time to get 4 cities to that point so I assume I don't want to open Tradition. Probably I'll try to open Liberty and follow the strat discussed here - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=436996&page=2 , then pop back and do the Legalism trick. Is that a pretty standard way to do a science victory?

 

[chazzycat]

you need libraries in your cities now too in order to pull off the free wats. And if you have wine or incense, you need to build the monastary too. But yeah, it's still a good strategy for Siam.

 

[Bamboocha]

What about China and their sweet paper makers?

 

[Barth]

you need libraries in your cities now too in order to pull off the free wats. And if you have wine or incense, you need to build the monastary too. But yeah, it's still a good strategy for Siam.

Ok, thanks. Now I'm not completely sure on how Legalism works - can I build a Monument and Temple in each city, pop Legalism, then finish my Libraries later and still get the free Wats? Or do I need all 3 (4 with Monasteries) before I pick Legalism to get them?

 

[chazzycat]

you need all the buildings built, and the appropriate tech (education) researched BEFORE taking legalism.

 

[Barth]

Great info, thank you.

 

[fmlizard2]

Arabia is pretty good from the luxuries you can sell from the Bazaar. That means more cash for RAs and everything else. Also true of Russia and selling strategic resources.

India can support higher populations, which feed your base science.

Egypt will help you be more likely to get science-based wonders like Great Library and Porcelain Tower.

 

[Artingel78]

Ramkhamhaeng-Siam and Harun al-Rashid are best choices.
Siam because of Wats and Arabia because of gold for RAs and of happiness.

 

[Becomedeath]

Curiously, I've had my earliest science victorys with the Mongols (who I don't consider a DLC even though they weren't part of the very very first package), the ability to build a large empire early on in the game and early enough to develop your puppets into 15-20 pop monsters means your science output can be gigantic and you have several core production cities already established to feed your war efforts so pushing out space-ship parts or quickly throwing up a science building is a breeze.

You'll never end up with massive amounts of happiness, but even if each city only has a library you're pouring that science on thick and fast with 20 odd cities from the medieval era.

Although I would concur with the above posters and say that the cultural\city state favouring Civs are more efficent and practical at achieving this.

 

[Barth]

So sorry for being such a newb, but I'm wondering if anyone can critique how I'm doing so far. At turn 87 I have 3 cities at 6/4/1 pop, which I think is too low? I probably focused on production over growth too much early on which will probably end up hurting me in the long run.

I'm also having a hard time distributing my gold. Right now I'm at 3 CS allies, which is probably too much gold sunk into CS's at this point? Although at least one of those was to get out of unhappiness and continue growing, and 500 gold for a CS seemed a better use of gold than 240 for just a luxury. But I'm getting Education in 11 turns and I eventually want to use Legalism to get 4 Wats, but I have a lot of construction to go before I can pull that off. I also stupidly wasted a RA by not paying attention and ended up with a 2 turn tech . I think I may have signed it too early, what point in the game is generally good to start on RA's?

I'm also not sure about my tech path. Even ignoring almost all military techs (AI has been amazingly friendly) I'm not going to hit Education till nearly turn 100, how far off pace is that? What benchmarks should I be shooting for as far as teching goes?

Thanks in advance, maybe someday I'll figure this game out.

 

[ahawk]

Egypt will help you be more likely to get science-based wonders like Great Library and Porcelain Tower.

Egypt is a decent choice. Their UB provides extra happiness to fill those cities up and get specialists and what not, and pumping out wonders can have far-reaching consequences.

A strategy I like with Egypt is to take both Hanging Garden as well as the Temple of Artemis, then get to about 3 cities, and from there pump food in via the aforementioned wonders, as well as going Tradition and paying Maritime CSs for even more food. From there on, I build wonders and buildings as I would with any civ, except that I rush-buy any food-producing or science-producing wonders and buildings.

While you're doing this, if you want, you can build Trading Posts everywhere if you don't need the food, then pick up Rationalism and bee-line to Free Thought, the SP that gives a science boost for every trading post.

I've found that I can get Mech. Inf. before the 1800's with this strat so long as I've filled my entire country with trading posts by the time I pick up Free Thought (using Scientific Revolution and a few saved GS to rush along whatever techs I still need).

Egypt is my choice, because all the wonders add culture toward filling out Rationalism, and if you pick the right wonders early on, you can go pretty tall and pick up extra science points and GSs.

 

[chgrogers]

Muang Saluang is in a bad spot in my opinion. Its in a food poor region and 1 tile in 4 directions from a river. Move the settle 1 tile buy the gems and deer tiles. This would also give you 1 long term wheat + another deer if you can swing the city culture.

I almost always grab The Wheel well before going to Education the +2 food from the Water Mill adds at least 1-2 pop in your cities. Roads are also a big plus.

Your new city is basically cut off from the rest. Making a war with America almost necessary.

What is your plan after Education? Your war with Gives you good reason to go after him, but he is father away.

India begs to be conquered he is center map hold most of the East-West passes.

New Cities Sites. On the Stone Just south of your capitol fills in some space between your 2 cities & potentially hooks up another sugar and Wine. With good production potential.

Kuala Lumpur is Hostile - Consider another Culture CS Like Warsaw who is Neutral instead.

But you good even great with the CS. Once you get Currency and a trade network built you can build even more.

One city site but I doubt you can swing it is right on your wounded archer near India. You would have to remove India to hook it up to the trade network but it has potential. All those Lumber mill with all the Maritime CS rolling in production.

I would also consider Patronage. You can buy more CS allies that way.

 

[ggmoyang]

Siam has both the Legalism trick for free Wats

Could you explain plz?

Does Siam city with Monument and Temple get Wat with Legalism?

 

[Martin Alvito]

A Siam city with a Monument, Temple and Library will get a Wat. Exception: if the city has Wine or Incense hooked up, it will get a Monastery. The usual way to end run that is just to avoid hooking up the Wine or Incense until you take Legalism, although you can hard build or rush the Monastery as well.

Siam's peaceful game pretty much revolves around getting four cities that meet all those conditions by the time you reach Education. It isn't easy, but it can be done. Getting a ten to fifteen turn head start on Universities is a massive boost; it more or less equates to a free extra GS and the ability to clear the late tech tree with RAs much earlier.

 

[Cyno]

France and Siam are probably the best choices. France gets through the early game and down the left side of Rationalism the fastest. Siam has both the Legalism trick for free Wats and the ability to heavily leverage Culturals to push Rationalism.

No one else really stands out. The Iroquois build Apollo and parts a bit faster, which is nice but not game-breaking. The Aztecs are well-rounded, but aren't uniquely suited to winning by space.

What exactly do you mean with a legalism trick for free wats? If it means what I think it does, can you also do it with Burial Tombs?

 

[RealHuhn]

What exactly do you mean with a legalism trick for free wats? If it means what I think it does, can you also do it with Burial Tombs?

Do people actually read the thread before replying?

Anyway, if you have four monuments and researched philosophy you get four burial tombs.

 

[Cyno]

oops, sorry

I just remembered reading this and just now ingame I didn't get a burial tomb. I forgot that I needed to settle the cities and build a monument first.

 

[ggmoyang]

Thanks, Martin Alvito!
I tested it and found out if I got Acoustics, Legalism gives Opera house, so it shouldnt be delayed that much.
And a city with Opera house will get Wat anyways, not a museum.