What's the logic in preventing Marines from being upgraded?

[MisterBarca]

I know that in recent patch Marines and SAM Infrantries are prevented from being upgraded to Mechanized Infantry. I see the logic for SAM Infantries, as they can be upgraded to the mobile version. But why are Marines prevented? And what's the point of building Marines if they will soon be outclassed badly?

 

[MrCynical]

Marines are more effective at amphibious attacks than mechanized infantry (as SAM infantry are better at intercepting aircraft than mechs). That was why they made a mistake by changing it so they could be upgraded - it broke the cardinal rule that the upgrade unit must be superior to the obsolete one under any circumstances.

 

[QBurrito]

So why not make a more advanced amphibious unit?

 

[johnny5000]

it broke the cardinal rule that the upgrade unit must be superior to the obsolete one under any circumstances.

Are we still able to "upgrade" regular infantry to SAM infantry?

 

[MisterBarca]

Marines are more effective at amphibious attacks than mechanized infantry (as SAM infantry are better at intercepting aircraft than mechs). That was why they made a mistake by changing it so they could be upgraded - it broke the cardinal rule that the upgrade unit must be superior to the obsolete one under any circumstances.

But the superior capacity to wage amphibious attacks is such a situational benefit and in many cases totally useless (though I concede that I feel this way, because I mostly play on the Highland map).

So the lesson is, unless you are planning on a lot of amphibious attacks, don't build Marines?

 

[MisterBarca]

Hmmm, I did not realize this before but Infantry actually beats Marine, though Marines are a later and more expensive units!

 

[Lurking Liu]

In Marathon they've got a fairly good window, and their base Strength is higher than Infantry.

 

[peter450]

I think if they started with woodsman an gurilla 1 promotions that would go along way to keeping them competitive lateer in the game or perhaps a late game building that gave marines these upgrades free once built.

Only an issue really on the short game since they have an excellent window of use in marathon as do all units really

 

[Kissamies]

IIRC, they did originally upgrade to mech infantry, but that meant that you couldn't build them any more when you had mech infantry available. Marines can be useful sometimes. I used to love them, but now I love the paratroopers more.

 

[Infantry#14]

Should there a later upgrade that combines the power of marines and paratroopers?

 

[Strategos]

I believe marines get another bonus, too. Something against machine guns and artillery? I forget.

I think once I tagged a GG to a marine. With combat VI and ambush he wasn't that bad in the late game. Could pick tanks out of a large stack when no other "more powerful" unit could, and nothing got any bonuses against him (except for anything with pinch).

I find marines useful for quickly taking out a low tech rival. Especially the ones who have like 10,000 trebuchets and a million knights or cavalry. In those situations, you never want to land a force on the ground unless you like to watch five minutes (literally) of combat where infantry/machine guns get eradicated by dudes throwing boulders and riding horses. I'm not bitter though ...

Similarly, they're good for wearing down large forces like those mentioned above. A couple transports (with medic I) full of marines parked outside of a large city can just keep attacking until there's a single unit left. If you're unsure if you can defend it after taking it, just wait another turn. Usually the AI moves a bunch of siege equipment into it for protection. The AI can be smart like that sometimes. Rinse and repeat until he stops moving units in. A fun thing to do is have like eight full transports, each with a destroyer escort for bombarding, harassing like four cities at a time. Wait til the right moment, then take four cities of his in the same turn. Got airports? If you do, he's toast.

But this situation doesn't always happen. And yeah, marines are situational. BTW, I play on epic, and they seem to have a decent window if you're waiting to get your hands on them.

 

[MrCynical]

I believe marines get another bonus, too. Something against machine guns and artillery? I forget.

They do get a 50% bonus against those units. It was handy when the AI dumped a stack of 50 odd artillery on your doorstep, though it's not so much of an issue in BtS now they can't kill anything.

 

[Strategos]

... now they can't kill anything.

Hmmm ... good point. I forgot about that. That's usually how my invading stacks died in warlords. Ten infantry vs. fifty trebuchets = no more invasion (by somebody's calculations). Still gotta worry about those cavalry though, although that has little to do with marines, lol.

 

[Seras]

So the lesson is, unless you are planning on a lot of amphibious attacks, don't build Marines?

seems pretty darn logical to me

 

[Quagga]

More like, don't build Marines if you have oil.

Though they do a better job of city garrison than tanks do. And they're tougher against siege, cavalry and helicopters than infantry are. But they don't upgrade to mech infantry.

 

[Solomwi]

Marines are great units, well worth building even if you have oil, but if you're looking for them to be the bulk of your army, you're not using them correctly. The best use for them is to terrorize coastal cities. Take them, and hold them long enough for you to get proper garrison troops there, then load the Marines up, sail to the next city, and repeat. Properly promoted, they do well against infantry, and with enough cannon fodder, they can hold their own against mechs, too.

In transports, they have an effective range greater than any other land unit. One of my favorite strategies is using one or two "landing forces" (battleships to knock the city defenses down, destroyers to watch for subs, a carrier or two if I have flight, and a couple transports full of Marines) to obliterate the enemy's access to the sea. If I have armor on the same continent, that goes after his inland cities at the same time. If it's intercontinental war, I may wait until he has no coastal cities remaining to send in my armor, or not send it at all. As my Marines gain experience, I try to get them March and Commando, along with Combat V ideally (obviously, Lincoln's Navy SEALs are ideal for this). At that point, they can strike deep into enemy territory with lightning speed and brutal effect. I prefer to build them in my HE/WP city, with other cities contributing lower-XP cannon fodder Marines if needed.

I would like to see an upgrade path for them, maybe (off the top of my head) Special Ops, str 30, 1 move, starts with Amphibious (and March?) and has the paradrop ability. Marines and Paratroopers could both upgrade to this unit with Computers or Composites. I'm happy as it is, though.

 

[GoodGame]

Great idea. Someone needs to mod it though.

http://www.d-n-i.net/images/fig_1_avv_schematics.jpg

So why not make a more advanced amphibious unit?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I would like to see an upgrade path for them, maybe (off the top of my head) Special Ops, str 30, 1 move, starts with Amphibious (and March?) and has the paradrop ability. Marines and Paratroopers could both upgrade to this unit with Computers or Composites. I'm happy as it is, though.

I'd prefer something like 28 move 2 (so that they could keep up if they were in a modern stack) [after all that was what the upgrade to SAM + Artillery did]

 

[Solomwi]

That would work, too, Krik, but given their two special uses (amphib and paradrop), their predecessors not being typical "stack" units, and the fact that they'd still be foot units (unlike the upgraded SAM and Artillery), the added movement isn't that big a concern for me. By that point, you've got mechs as a move 2 gunpowder unit to defend against the armor counters. Maybe instead of move 2, start them with Commando instead of March. That would warrant capping the strength at 28, allow them to keep up with a modern stack, and still be in keeping with the "spirit" of the unit.

 

[Rusty Edge]

That would work, too, Krik, but given their two special uses (amphib and paradrop), their predecessors not being typical "stack" units, and the fact that they'd still be foot units (unlike the upgraded SAM and Artillery), the added movement isn't that big a concern for me. By that point, you've got mechs as a move 2 gunpowder unit to defend against the armor counters. Maybe instead of move 2, start them with Commando instead of March. That would warrant capping the strength at 28, allow them to keep up with a modern stack, and still be in keeping with the "spirit" of the unit.

I like the sound of that.