ozscott75
Groper of Sand
Just like the subject asks;
When did the United States become officially independent?
When did the United States become officially independent?
When did the United States become officially independent?
- Thread starter ozscott75
- Start date
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
I say 1776. The United Kingdom did not have any political power in the United States after the approval and signing of the Declaration.
VoodooAce
Emperor
In our hearts, I'm sure it was '76, but in fact I guess it was '83. You can say you're independent all you want, but we had to back it up or the Declaration fo Independece didn't matter.
Xiahou-Dun
Retired Super Hero
I would say '83 as well.
Taiwan would be a somewhat a good example of '76. Until your country is recoginized (by war or treaty) by other countries.
Taiwan would be a somewhat a good example of '76. Until your country is recoginized (by war or treaty) by other countries.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
We had our own code of law and political autonomy, though we had to fight the United Kingdom to become officially recognized as an independent state.
Xiahow does have a point concerning Taiwan being recognized.
ozscott, did you intend "officially" independent as recognized by foreign governments, or independent as political autonomy?
Xiahow does have a point concerning Taiwan being recognized.
ozscott, did you intend "officially" independent as recognized by foreign governments, or independent as political autonomy?
ozscott75
Groper of Sand
Ah, young Master Sharpe, that is the key to the question, but to give you a little hint, Xiahow-Dun was close to the mark.
napoleon526
Emperor
It could be argued that the US became independent upon recieving official recognition from the French gov't after the battle of Saratoga.
roadwarrior
Warlord
1776. After that point Britain no longer held political control of the former colonies, whether or not they chose to recognize that fact. We WERE independent in all respects, and the treaty merely acknowledged that fact.
Xiahou-Dun
Retired Super Hero
Close....
How about when England recognized the US as independent nation. This would be one official way. Until England did, it could be disputed as to if the US is independent. Back to the Taiwan example...England could call the US a breakaway colony. Calling it one and being one are completely different though.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
Yes, Great Britain for several years called the United States a breakaway colony, yet the United States acted as an independent state with political autonomy but did not recieve recognition from the British government.
ozscott75
Groper of Sand
The United States indeed acted as an indepenent nation, and France was the first nation to recgnise the independence of the thirteen colonies, however, the United States did not become officially independent until the signing of the Treaty of Paris (1783).
A country can claim it's independence and other countries can recognise this, however, until the parent country officially recognises a colony's independence, that colony is not independent.
A country can claim it's independence and other countries can recognise this, however, until the parent country officially recognises a colony's independence, that colony is not independent.
MrPresident
Anglo-Saxon Liberal
I think it is 1783 because that was when the war of independence ended. Until that war did end America was still offically fighting for its independence.
I voted 1776, since the U.S. began to form its own independent institutions and effectively behave like an independent state after the adoption of its Declaration of Independence.
BTW, minor detail; the Declaration of Independence was actually adopted on 2. July - John Adams says in his diary that he thinks 2. July will become a major American holiday - but the first signings after the Continental Congress president, John Hancock, didn't take place until two days later on 4. July. The final signings didn't take place until September.
BTW, minor detail; the Declaration of Independence was actually adopted on 2. July - John Adams says in his diary that he thinks 2. July will become a major American holiday - but the first signings after the Continental Congress president, John Hancock, didn't take place until two days later on 4. July. The final signings didn't take place until September.
During WWI Irish nationalists set up their own political institutions so that in effect the country was run by its own governement (excluding Ulster), called the First Dail, the people of the country turned to it instead of the British. This was while the country was bnattling for independence and continued after WWI ended. 1916 Rising, the Declaration of Independence is proclaimed outside the GPO on O'connell street, signed by the leaders of the rebellion.
The point is that everyone in Ireland (with any knowledge of history) knows that independence was achieved in 1921, when the British governement signed the treaty whichgave Ireland independence.
So maybe I'm slightly biased but I think independence is achieved when the "mother" country acknowledges it.
So I'll go with the Treaty of Paris.
Edited due to historical error.
The point is that everyone in Ireland (with any knowledge of history) knows that independence was achieved in 1921, when the British governement signed the treaty whichgave Ireland independence.
So maybe I'm slightly biased but I think independence is achieved when the "mother" country acknowledges it.
So I'll go with the Treaty of Paris.
Edited due to historical error.
Xiahou-Dun
Retired Super Hero
Wouldn't time play a roll in this as well. 50 years as an independent country should be enough to over come the parent countrys opinion. I say opinion because really the winner needs not the blessing of the parent country...at least not if the rest of the worlds countries do recognise the child..(Breakaway Country).
In the extreme case the only way Taiwan could be considered an independent country is if they could get China to officially say they are. And failing this, invade China to force them to admit it. We now have gone from a revolution on an island, to forcing them to invade another piece on land to get recongition as a country.
rambling...rambling..
The obvious answer is of course when the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776. But I'd say that Great Britain formally recognized the United States of America in the Treaty of Paris of 1783. Article I of the treaty runs:
"His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."
As one stated before, in our hearts, we became independent on July 4 1776, but I'd say that Britain formally accepted the United States as a free and autonomous union in 1783.
"His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."
As one stated before, in our hearts, we became independent on July 4 1776, but I'd say that Britain formally accepted the United States as a free and autonomous union in 1783.
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
I have a question. What is considered officially independent?
ozscott75 gave this definition:
"A country can claim it's independence and other countries can recognise this, however, until the parent country officially recognises a colony's independence, that colony is not independent."
That of course includes that problem that as long as the parent country doesn't recognise the independence, it is pratcially impossible.
But if a country declares independence, maybe even fights and wins a war about it and then years pass in practical independence, couldn't that also be regarded as official independence?
What is official independence today? Recognition by the UN?
ozscott75 gave this definition:
"A country can claim it's independence and other countries can recognise this, however, until the parent country officially recognises a colony's independence, that colony is not independent."
That of course includes that problem that as long as the parent country doesn't recognise the independence, it is pratcially impossible.
But if a country declares independence, maybe even fights and wins a war about it and then years pass in practical independence, couldn't that also be regarded as official independence?
What is official independence today? Recognition by the UN?
germanos
King
Offiacially the US became independent when the UK gave up its claim on the territory of the Union.
De facto the US became independent when the declaration of independence was accepted by the Union memberstates, and very soon after other nations started to recognize the newborn State.
IMO it is very important if a new independent entity is recognized by other nations. I can declare my house an independent country,but if nobody recognizes it, it will not be independent.
Quiz: what was the first Nation to recognize the Union?
(N.B.: I do NOT know the answer. I do know that the Netherlands were quite quick about it, but IIRC it was a rather obscure little country in South America)
De facto the US became independent when the declaration of independence was accepted by the Union memberstates, and very soon after other nations started to recognize the newborn State.
IMO it is very important if a new independent entity is recognized by other nations. I can declare my house an independent country,but if nobody recognizes it, it will not be independent.
Quiz: what was the first Nation to recognize the Union?
(N.B.: I do NOT know the answer. I do know that the Netherlands were quite quick about it, but IIRC it was a rather obscure little country in South America)
Zarn
Le Républicain Catholique
There were no nations in South America. The land belonged to Europe. France was the first nation. 1776, BTW. If the British did not reconize the U.S. for another 50 years after the war, would we be independent after those 50 years. Besides, actual fighting in the states ended two years before the Treaty of Paris.
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