When do we allow reloads for mistakes?

[ash88]

Rik:

If this is going to go through I would include that the admins need to evaluate the impact that the reload has on other teams turn results.

If my city survives an attack against expectations, and then another team requests a reload, and it is granted without my turn results being considered - then I would be very angry.

 

[mgsmuhammad]

..And you won't like Ash when he's angry..

 

[Rik Meleet]

Rik:

If this is going to go through I would include that the admins need to evaluate the impact that the reload has on other teams turn results.

If my city survives an attack against expectations, and then another team requests a reload, and it is granted without my turn results being considered - then I would be very angry.

IMVHO Condition 3 takes care of this -> "It doesn’t affect another team.".

 

[nabaxo]

Unintentional war declarations seems like a simple think to sort out...Why would you need a reload for that? Edit: Unless you accidentally kill another team's unit that is.

I wholeheartedly agree with the rest though.

 

[DaveShack]

I agree in principle with what Rik has said.

However I must reiterate my position that if a child's body, toy, player's pet or other animal, spouse cleaning in the room, parts of house falling down, earthquake or tornado debris, or any other foreign object contacts the keyboard or mouse and causes a misclick then none of the rest of this matters. It was not a mistake by the turnplayer. Call it act of God if you believe, chance if you don't -- but it is not the turnplayer's fault and should be corrected no matter what other circumstances might be. Otherwise people with kids / pets / roomies are effectively turned into second or third class citizens. Just my opinion.
(BTW, my technical area is disaster recovery and planning, and I guess it shows)

If the turnplayer just hits pause immediately and makes the request immediately, and does not log in again (to this or any other game on the same server) with the same username, then it will be possible to reload without losing anything that happened before the player logged in. And the chances of discovering something previously unknown due to one of these events is astronomically small. The TP in question can just forget whatever came up. Not to mention if they did spill the beans, the admin can see the "guess what I saw when that city got planted by accident" in the forum...

 

[nabaxo]

I agree in principle with what Rik has said.

However I must reiterate my position that if a child's body, toy, player's pet or other animal, spouse cleaning in the room, parts of house falling down, earthquake or tornado debris, or any other foreign object contacts the keyboard or mouse and causes a misclick then none of the rest of this matters. It was not a mistake by the turnplayer. Call it act of God if you believe, chance if you don't -- but it is not the turnplayer's fault and should be corrected no matter what other circumstances might be. Otherwise people with kids / pets / roomies are effectively turned into second or third class citizens. Just my opinion.
(BTW, my technical area is disaster recovery and planning, and I guess it shows).

I think there's a term for what you want say, I think that it's called "force majeure".

 

[Robi D]

I agree in principle with what Rik has said.

However I must reiterate my position that if a child's body, toy, player's pet or other animal, spouse cleaning in the room, parts of house falling down, earthquake or tornado debris, or any other foreign object contacts the keyboard or mouse and causes a misclick then none of the rest of this matters. It was not a mistake by the turnplayer. Call it act of God if you believe, chance if you don't -- but it is not the turnplayer's fault and should be corrected no matter what other circumstances might be. Otherwise people with kids / pets / roomies are effectively turned into second or third class citizens. Just my opinion.
(BTW, my technical area is disaster recovery and planning, and I guess it shows)

If the turnplayer just hits pause immediately and makes the request immediately, and does not log in again (to this or any other game on the same server) with the same username, then it will be possible to reload without losing anything that happened before the player logged in. And the chances of discovering something previously unknown due to one of these events is astronomically small. The TP in question can just forget whatever came up. Not to mention if they did spill the beans, the admin can see the "guess what I saw when that city got planted by accident" in the forum...

Correct me if i'm wrong since i wasn't very involved in the last MTDG, but that game broke down because there was a suspicion by some a turnplayer was manipulating battle results. And even though nothing was proven the bad atmosphere lead to a break down in the game.

Giving carte blanche to errors is just leaving the door wide open firstly to the possibility of people abusing it to their advantage but more importantly the preception people could be abusing it. That too will lead to a bad atmosphere and this game will break down as well.

Also if reloads were done without giving thought to how it affects other teams how do you think a team will react after a reload for another teams mistake they find themselves significantly disadvantaged. My bet is not well at all and more than likely the game breaking down.

If you honestly think that people will accept the possibility of someone getting an advantage from a mistake or getting disadvantaged by someones else mistake happily and cheerfully, then that in my opinion is being naive because the history of MTDG's shows otherwise.

 

[DaveShack]

You make it sound like this would make people careless. I think that's a pretty big stretch.

It was surprising enough for "outside interference" to happen once. But it also proves that it's possible.

In sports, outside interference often results in a do-over. A baseball fan catches a ball past the railing over a visiting player's glove, and the home team is denied a home run. A beach ball thrown onto a soccer field stops play moments before a goal is scored. A golf ball is moved by a spectator and must be put back in its original position. This is exactly the same thing.

 

[Aivoturso]

@Aivo, I do think most people are capable of objectively justifying their opinions. For instance, from CDZ's point of view the fact we have been on the other side of most debates on the ruleset will have absolutely no bearing on the end result of any ingame actions.

Pardon me for being cynical here, but I don't have quite that much faith in human nature. In this particular case being objective is relatively easy since we are still quite early in the game. However, later on if there is a bitter war going on between two teams or alliances, would you still believe that people would remain objective if one of the teams asked for a reload on similar grounds as now? How about if the war had just recently started and one of the teams see the war as a pesonal insult? Personally I am not confident that everyone could be objective in that case even if they tried. That's why I believe that the decision should be solely admins' responsibility.

I agree with nabaxo that unintentional war declaration should not warrant for a reload. Although it can lead for the teams involved missing quite a bit trade, it is hardly a game breaking event. Also sequences required for unintentional war declaration are so far fetched that I really don't see how that could happen accidentally.

 

[whb]

I think there's a term for what you want say, I think that it's called "force majeure".

Except presumably a child thumping the keyboard is "force mineure"

 

[Indiansmoke]

Nm...

 

[Calis]

EDIT: Crosspost with your editing...

EDIT2: Following your deleting, I did the same now!

 

[Indiansmoke]

EDIT: It seems to be a bad day

 

[Calis]

I also deleted the contents of my post.

I think you recognized that your post was not very helpful for the discussion.

I really don't think that the fact that you are Greek and I am German should cause any trouble automatically. I am here to have a pleasant relation to everybody actually.

I am not sure how, I insulted you, but anyway, I apologize for doing it.

 

[Robi D]

You make it sound like this would make people careless. I think that's a pretty big stretch.

It was surprising enough for "outside interference" to happen once. But it also proves that it's possible.

In sports, outside interference often results in a do-over. A baseball fan catches a ball past the railing over a visiting player's glove, and the home team is denied a home run. A beach ball thrown onto a soccer field stops play moments before a goal is scored. A golf ball is moved by a spectator and must be put back in its original position. This is exactly the same thing.

Different sports have different rules but the main thing there is there is a whole bunch of people around to witness it where as here it only on a persons say so (and i'm not trying to imply sommerswerd was being dishonest) and as you said yourself this was a freak event that might never reoccur in this game. But say for example a team ask for a reload 3 times within a 50 turn period, would you not be suspicious that it not 100% genuine?

And if another team loses out in a reload do you think they would just say 'thats the rules' and take it on the chin. I don't think so, if a team would be prepared to quit because they didn't get a reload for a misclick, then a team would be just as likely to quit because a reload put them at a disadvantage. And while you have said previously there is no money or trophy to win here, the fact is there has still been people who have cheated anyway.

 

[damnrunner]

I think it depends what the reload is for. Should a team ask for 3 reloads due to inaccurate city founding - would any one suspect foul play. I think not. Just bad turn play - or perchance a disgruntled teammate who wanted to mess things up.

Reloads for obvious mistakes like this should be granted.

 

[SilentConfusion]

If the turnplayer just hits pause immediately and makes the request immediately, and does not log in again (to this or any other game on the same server) with the same username, then it will be possible to reload without losing anything that happened before the player logged in. And the chances of discovering something previously unknown due to one of these events is astronomically small. The TP in question can just forget whatever came up. Not to mention if they did spill the beans, the admin can see the "guess what I saw when that city got planted by accident" in the forum...

I think this is a worthwhile thing to consider. If a turn-player does this and pauses it right away the game can be reloaded to this point, so there is not an issue of losing someone's advantage unless they played during this pause, which would probably be something to avoid anyway because this could be exploited. Teams could take risky chances during this pause and if they're successful claim that the game can't be reloaded.

A rule about pausing immediately and not playing during this pause ought to eliminate the possibility that other people's successes will be canceled out or that they'll be affected.

I do still see Robi's point about the potential for abuse (or even suspicion of abuse) if reloads are granted very freely. I am usually willing to trust to people's integrity in these types of games, but if the potential for abuse causes people to be unhappy with the game then it could be a problem.

 

[azzaman333]

Personally I like Rik's proposal. Reloading should only be an option when there's a serious error, and I trust that the game admins will adequately determine when these occur and deny a reload request for minor issues.

 

[DaveShack]

Conditions from Rik's post.

1. Serious matter / game destroying event.
2. It can be verified.
These are OK.

3. It doesn’t affect another team.
Well, this is a little undefined to me. Darn near everything affects another team. Doesn't unfairly affect another team? And see my proposal that the pause could be immediate so that another team's actions cannot be undone by a potential reload. (and the save point is preserved by that player not logging in again anywhere on my server with the same name)

4. It is not a regular occurrence / (un)limited reloads per team.
In principle this is OK. Though I'd want to have a limit so high it is inconceivable it might be exceeded. If you must, put sanctions on requests that the admins find to be frivolous, not a limit on legitimate requests.

5. Request must be immediate.
6. Error has not given any / important benefits.
Hard to imagine a reloadable accidental action that would reveal much now. Unless they're settling on the edge of the wilderness where they would have continued further into the wilderness, which is a bit

7. Request made anonymous
8. Admin decision or admin veto
9. Caused by an out of game incident
Yes, Yes, and Yes. Though immediate pausing reveals who paused it, it does not reveal why. So if we just ease up a bit on being worried about who paused or why... hey, I foresaw this and argued against making pauses a big deal

 

[Robi D]

3. It doesn’t affect another team.
Well, this is a little undefined to me. Darn near everything affects another team. Doesn't unfairly affect another team?

Fair enough

4. It is not a regular occurrence / (un)limited reloads per team.
In principle this is OK. Though I'd want to have a limit so high it is inconceivable it might be exceeded. If you must, put sanctions on requests that the admins find to be frivolous, not a limit on legitimate requests.

I don't think there needs to be a value just some common sense, there should be some onus on the turnplayer to be careful when playing the turn. And yes the admins can sanction a team for continual frivolous requests.

6. Error has not given any / important benefits.
Hard to imagine a reloadable accidental action that would reveal much now. Unless they're settling on the edge of the wilderness where they would have continued further into the wilderness, which is a bit

Sure its not likely, about as likely as a piece of plaster falling off a wall and hitting the keyboard while playing your turn, yet here we are discussing reloads for such unlikely events causing misclicks. Afterall a misclick could cause a city being built in the wilderness where it wasn't intended to go and where that team might not have planned to explore futher right away.

Aside from some minor technicalities no one has has opposed Rik's suggestion since he put it up which was nearly a week ago, i would suggest this should be put to a team vote asap so the issue can be put to rest.