When should espionage replace research?

[Bhruic]

I don't think Expansive is any more useful - espionage doesn't introduce any health penalties. Organized is a pretty good choice, the cheaper Courthouses really help get "base" EPs up. Philosophical, of course, is quite useful as you mentioned. Charismatic is another good generic choice. It's not any better for espionage than it is for anything else, but the extra happiness allows for bigger cities, more tiles worked, more commerce, and therefore more EPs.

Bh

 

[bardolph]

With a Spiritual Civ, you can easily switch back and forth between Nationalism + Espionage Slider in times of war, and Free Speech + Science Slider in times of peace.

I disagree with Bhuric that a Great Spy should never be used to infiltrate. In a recent game I started with 1 other civ on my continent, built the Great Wall and got the Great Spy, infiltrated, and continued to run the science slider. Between "free" stolen techs and researched techs which I could then trade, I was easily able to keep a very high tech rate, won the race to Liberalism, and was #2 overall once I contacted the rest of the world on Emperor. The EPs from the Great Spy alone lasted me well into the Medieval Era, without ever running the espionage slider.

Scotland Yard is great if you intend to run the espionage slider, but if you plan to run the science slider, infiltration might be better, especially in the Classical Era, when you don't have access to Jails, Castles, and Nationhood.

If you intend to win any tech races, then the espionage slider will be useless to you. Likewise, if you want to research techs that few other civs have, and trade for them, or if you need to prioritize techs that your neighbors don't have, or if you are isolated and don't have any advanced neighbors, then, likewise, the espionage slider won't help you. Use the science slider instead.

The espionage slider is great when you are behind your neighbors techwise, your neighbors are close by, and you have religions and trade routes in common with neighboring cities.

 

[Bhruic]

I disagree with Bhuric that a Great Spy should never be used to infiltrate. In a recent game I started with 1 other civ on my continent, built the Great Wall and got the Great Spy, infiltrated, and continued to run the science slider. Between "free" stolen techs and researched techs which I could then trade, I was easily able to keep a very high tech rate, won the race to Liberalism, and was #2 overall once I contacted the rest of the world on Emperor. The EPs from the Great Spy alone lasted me well into the Medieval Era, without ever running the espionage slider.

You can't say you disagree and then talk about a completely different situation. Of course if you're not going to be running an espionage economy using the GSpy to infiltrate is quite powerful. But if you are going to be running a full espionage economy, it's a waste of the GSpy. You will easily get many times the amount of EPs you get from infiltrating by using it to build Scotland Yard instead.

In other words, I didn't say you should never use a GSpy to infiltrate in general. I said you never should if you are running an espionage economy.

Bh

 

[Roland Johansen]

Bhruic is right that in case you're running an espionage economy, then a Scotland Yard will easily produce more espionage points than an infiltration during a game. If you build the Scotland Yard in a good city, then it won't take long before it alone will increase the espionage point production of your civilisation by 50 per turn and even more in the late game (150 per turn or more). It will produce far more espionage points during a game than an infiltration.

This means that if you're running an espionage economy, then the choice is mostly simple. The cases where you'd want to do an infiltration are rare. Only when you need some technologies now and can't wait for the espionage points to accumulate. For instance when your economy is stalling because of overexpansion and crucial technologies like calendar and code of laws seem ages away. Sometimes a quick gain now can be better for your civilisation, then a theoretical long term gain if you can use that short term gain very well to improve your civilisation (and thus turn the short time gain in a long term gain for your civilisation).
But this situation will only arise when you have made an error in running your civilisation (like overexpansion) which result in the need for a short term boost. If you play the game well and don't stall your economy, then you'd never want to use infiltration in an espionage economy.

Note that infiltration can of course be useful in an economy that's not set up to be an espionage economy, but that's another issue.

 

[bardolph]

You can't say you disagree and then talk about a completely different situation. Of course if you're not going to be running an espionage economy using the GSpy to infiltrate is quite powerful. But if you are going to be running a full espionage economy, it's a waste of the GSpy. You will easily get many times the amount of EPs you get from infiltrating by using it to build Scotland Yard instead.

In other words, I didn't say you should never use a GSpy to infiltrate in general. I said you never should if you are running an espionage economy.

Bh

Ah yes. I somehow missed that point. My bad.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I am skeptical that an espionage economy would be viable in many situations. But I do think the Great Wall, early Great Spy option is very powerful. The Wall keeps the barbarians at bay allowing an early REX and then the GS allows you to steal all the techs the tech leader has for a small investment in spies.

In fact this is so strong it almost borders on an exploit.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I am skeptical that an espionage economy would be viable in many situations.

Its definitely viable. Whats there to be skeptical about? If you are behind in tech you can steal techs for fewer commerce units than it takes to research them due to the settled spy discount. You can also get multipliers for spying just as you get multipliers for research. And there are civics that support spying.

Its a valid economy - and fairly well balanced given that the lower cost of techs is balanced by the fact that you can only ever be second to a tech and miss out on the benefits of researching it first. It is ideal for a catchup situation and obviously useless if you are the tech leader.

 

[bardolph]

Its definitely viable. Whats there to be skeptical about? If you are behind in tech you can steal techs for fewer commerce units than it takes to research them due to the settled spy discount. You can also get multipliers for spying just as you get multipliers for research. And there are civics that support spying.

Its a valid economy - and fairly well balanced given that the lower cost of techs is balanced by the fact that you can only ever be second to a tech and miss out on the benefits of researching it first. It is ideal for a catchup situation and obviously useless if you are the tech leader.

It can get pretty expensive if you're isolated (distance penalty), haven't founded a religion, your opponent is spending EPs on you, has "defensive spies", or if your target city has a Security Bureau.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It can get pretty expensive if you're isolated (distance penalty), haven't founded a religion, your opponent is spending EPs on you, has "defensive spies", or if your target city has a Security Bureau.

Defensive Spies don't increase the EP cost, just the hammer cost (they eliminate your spies)

The EP factor is almost always going to be in your favor since it Doesn't depend on how much your opponent is spending on you , but on how much both of you have spent on Everyone

If you are running an Espionage Economy that is in your favor

Assuming none of the Religion bonuses
x80% open borders
x ~70% EP bonus
x 50% Spy settled
x 150% (EP base cost v. Flask base cost)
x 150% Security center
x~130% (bonuses you get to researching a tech with prerequisites or if other civs know it)

Ends up with about 82%

That is with no distance penalties

so if you can do it with minimal distance penalties (or Holy city Religion Bonuses to off set those penalties) then it is balanced out

Farther away.. favors self research
The more civs that have it.. favors self research
The more prerequisites you have... favors self research
The more of it you already have researched.. favors self research
Espionage points Easier to get.. favors Espionage
Religious bonuses.. favors Espionage
Culture that you have in the city.. favors Espionage

 

[bardolph]

Defensive Spies don't increase the EP cost, just the hammer cost (they eliminate your spies)

The EP factor is almost always going to be in your favor since it Doesn't depend on how much your opponent is spending on you , but on how much both of you have spent on Everyone

If you are running an Espionage Economy that is in your favor

Assuming none of the Religion bonuses
x80% open borders
x ~70% EP bonus
x 50% Spy settled
x 150% (EP base cost v. Flask base cost)
x 150% Security center
x~130% (bonuses you get to researching a tech with prerequisites or if other civs know it)

Ends up with about 82%

That is with no distance penalties

so if you can do it with minimal distance penalties (or Holy city Religion Bonuses to off set those penalties) then it is balanced out

Farther away.. favors self research
The more civs that have it.. favors self research
The more prerequisites you have... favors self research
The more of it you already have researched.. favors self research
Espionage points Easier to get.. favors Espionage
Religious bonuses.. favors Espionage
Culture that you have in the city.. favors Espionage

I wasn't aware that culture and Open Borders affected the cost (unless you were referring to the Trade Routes bonus).

Also, it can be surprising how many EPs some civs are able to accumulate. They can run the espionage slider, too, or infiltrate you with a Great Spy.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

If you are actually running the slider, and doing it continuously, anyone you Want to spy on (who has been running some research) should be far behind in EPs (unless they are just better than you)

Open Borders.. yeah, that is the Trade Routes bonus

Culture... the Other reason it is worth spying on a border city

 

[InvisibleStalke]

When I've actually run an Espionage economy I've always tried to eliminate the distance penalty by leaving some land the AI can settle in - usually poor land. The AI loves to send out settlers with Astronomy and grab footholds - and the first AI to Astronomy is usually the one you want to steal from. So leaving some tundra or desert can pay huge dividends.

Defenses like security center aren't a big worry if you steal from cities like that - there is no way the AI will ever build one in some of the cities it settles because they simply generate no hammers. You can use the AI's tendency to settle bad cities to your advantage here.

And you can easily send a missionary for religion bonuses and make sure roads exist for trade.

Maybe it doesn't always work out like that - but its a fairly good bet that if you leave some poor land unsettled, you will get a neighbour coming to visit.

 

[Indiansmoke]

When I've actually run an Espionage economy I've always tried to eliminate the distance penalty by leaving some land the AI can settle in - usually poor land. The AI loves to send out settlers with Astronomy and grab footholds - and the first AI to Astronomy is usually the one you want to steal from. So leaving some tundra or desert can pay huge dividends.

Defenses like security center aren't a big worry if you steal from cities like that - there is no way the AI will ever build one in some of the cities it settles because they simply generate no hammers. You can use the AI's tendency to settle bad cities to your advantage here.

And you can easily send a missionary for religion bonuses and make sure roads exist for trade.

Maybe it doesn't always work out like that - but its a fairly good bet that if you leave some poor land unsettled, you will get a neighbour coming to visit.

Yes I did that as well in one game and it turned out that the only oil in my continent was in that poor spot that the AI settled!!!

 

[bardolph]

When I've actually run an Espionage economy I've always tried to eliminate the distance penalty by leaving some land the AI can settle in - usually poor land. The AI loves to send out settlers with Astronomy and grab footholds - and the first AI to Astronomy is usually the one you want to steal from. So leaving some tundra or desert can pay huge dividends.

Defenses like security center aren't a big worry if you steal from cities like that - there is no way the AI will ever build one in some of the cities it settles because they simply generate no hammers. You can use the AI's tendency to settle bad cities to your advantage here.

And you can easily send a missionary for religion bonuses and make sure roads exist for trade.

Maybe it doesn't always work out like that - but its a fairly good bet that if you leave some poor land unsettled, you will get a neighbour coming to visit.

Definitely a good plan.

 

[johnloc22]

Any advice for limiting the AI's poisoning the water supply until there is no population left?

 

[GoodGame]

I haven't tried capitalizing on stealing techs either, but if you tend to sell tech to the AI, you had better set spy to at least 20%, and spread some spies around your border, because they will steal quite a bit of your best techs.