When Should You get Your First Worker?

[Xpl]

I'd like to know where you economy is. You said you plan to make four more cities to draft riflemen. So what is there to stop the AI to beat you to Rifling and kill you? From what I've read you've neglected workers to building wonders. Well..
If you build more workers you can improve tiles faster. Improving tiles means more commerce,food and production. More commerce means faster research which in turn means less time to get to those shiny riflemen. More production means you can produce more warriors quicker and more efficiently. Also note it means you can build your shiny lighthouse and library quicker.

I know a person who is devoted to production and military. In many games he wonders why his economy breaks down and is struggling to get to his favourite technology of industrialism to get those shiny tanks. He had 2 workers in total right through the entire game.

It's a good thing to focus on military, but surely you need an economy to support the production and maintenance of a military? Oh and weren't you asking a question to the board? I didn't know that this was a thread to spread your beliefs and deny that everyone is wrong.

I may not be good at the game but I know at least that worker first is more efficient. more optimum and will lead to greater success in the majority of games.

 

[GKey]

...you should wait until you've played more at those levels before lecturing about what works. The fact that you're "planning" to play Deity soon is hardly relevant. I plan to learn German some day, but I'm not about to go around giving pronunciation lessons...

Applause at standing. Can't tell better then that.
OP make couple of immortal/deity games to see if warriors chocking strat is always working.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Not meaning to be harsh, but maybe you should wait until you've played more at those levels before lecturing about what works. The fact that you're "planning" to play Deity soon is hardly relevant. I plan to learn German some day, but I'm not about to go around giving pronunciation lessons...



I didn't look at the save, but from your comments on that thread your opening was obviously flawed. You started wb/wb, building those slowly on unimproved tiles. If you had gone worker first while teching BW you could have chopped the boats and gotten onto the clams faster and grown to your cap faster while working fewer unimproved tiles. Then you would also, you know, have a worker... to do more chopping, build roads, all that good stuff. And this is to say nothing of all the warrior spam after that, some of which should have been replaced with additional workers or settlers from the sound of it.

As for the rest of the game, having a tech lead at 1635 in an Emperor demonstrates nothing given that it's possible to win Emperor easily, routinely, with pretty bad play. But whatever, maybe you played a great game. That's not the point. The point is that your opening, where you waited so long to build even one worker, is highly inefficient. The "intangibles" you mention don't even begin to outweigh the slow, inefficient growth given that you only need a couple units to scout/meet people anyway, and it doesn't matter one bit whether you wait to build them until after a worker. And recall, this is the game you put forward as the best case for your warrior spam opening -- in most cases it will be even worse, and that is what people have been saying throughout this already ridiculously overlong thread.

Finally, a general reminder: this is just a game, not worth getting bent out of shape about, and people on the forum are generally here to help -- we're not your enemies. However, it's frustrating for people when you seem to be stubbornly ignoring the advice of much more experienced players, which has been backed up with arguments that you have not rebutted. If you feel like you're getting heat at this point, that may be partly why. So I'd just take people's advice for what it's worth, test it by playing a lot more games different ways, and see what conclusions you come to. That will be infinitely more productive than an abstract debate on a message board about what you imagine works on Deity.

No, you're missing something. It's partly my fault because I'm not explaining it well. The large number of warriors early is not the main theme of the general strategy. I'm really going for something else, and it just happens that because I'm going for that, warriors are being churned out.

Since I'm producing warriors, I may as well use them. I'm going to continue this on another thread, but explain myself a bit more clearly.

 

[Kaosprophet]

I'd like to know where you economy is.

In all fairness:

The economy is pretty much reliant on the wonders, which I'm told *can* work if you know what you're doing with it. Financial + Colossus + seafood can generate decent commerce off coastal tiles, which mitigates some (though not all) of the need for workerspam to improve land tiles. 'Mids + caste system (or sufficient libraries) for early Representation specialists can do the same, since running specs means working fewer tiles.

That said, I wouldn't recommend the Wonderspam strategy to someone who's just moving into Emperor difficulty; perhaps for someone who's comfortable with it, and can judge whether their odds of getting GLH + Colossus + Pyramids are decent enough to take the gamble and knows how to work them.

I'm also not convinced that "wb-wb-warrior-warrior-warrior-warrior" is the most efficient way of pulling this strategy off. I have no doubt that it can work if the rest of your game is decent, but I think you do *better* with WB-worker-chopWB.

 

[ahcos]

You should take a quick look at his save, he managed it to actually have 78 BPT 300 AD with Mids, Colossus (+ FIN) and TGL. One of these wonders alone should give you way beyond 100 BPT long before 1AD pretty much regardless of how crappy the map is, let alone all three of them.

Ofc those wonders can give you a great econ, but he has them and doesn't even make use of them, but still insists on his strategy being good. That's hilarious.

 

[amanbe]

The OP is either a troll or prepubescent, or both.... Stop feeding it.

 

[Kaosprophet]

You should take a quick look at his save, he managed it to actually have 78 BPT 300 AD with Mids, Colossus (+ FIN) and TGL. One of these wonders alone should give you way beyond 100 BPT long before 1AD pretty much regardless of how crappy the map is, let alone all three of them.

Ofc those wonders can give you a great econ, but he has them and doesn't even make use of them. That's hilarious.

Granted. But he(?) somehow manages to have a tech lead in 1635, which I presume means he at least *starts* using them at some point and implies that his game isn't completely full of holes.

 

[ahcos]

Well, if you take into account that he has the techlead by 300 AD with those techs (!) it seems he doesn't need to start to bring them to use apparently, because the AI is extremely slow on this map. Therefore, he probably should be able to maintain the techlead even without abusing the wonders at all ~ Given his cityplacement, tile improvements, city micro and that he has ONE single GP (which is a GM on his way to a trademission) are sure calls to say that he has alot of holes in his gameplay. And it doesn't even stop there, those are only the most crucial parts i remember off the cuff.

I'm not trying to be mean, but he's insisting on this game to be a good example of his strategy working, which, as it seems, isn't the case. Given the tech speed this map's more like Prince difficulty.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Oh, I don't deny that my gameplay is about as holey as a worm-eaten apple. You should watch me pre-chop forests. Half the time, they don't get pre-chopped, .

Also, after the important tiles are worked, I find that worker-automation is better than my micromanagement.

The reason why it looks so ugly though is because I've been too busy with other things. Like getting city infrastructure, and wonders up. My play immediately changes to: improving efficiency, now that I've got the basic stuff down.

I think the below attachment is the right one. As you can see, from 300 AD-1600ish AD, I have been abusing some of the Wonders (especially the fact that all of them give GP points , which works well with Pacifism, Representation, Bureaucracy, and the National Epic) and improving the efficiency and size of my civ. As I said, it's much easier to improve efficiency than it is to wage a war or get a Wonder that's already been built.

BTW, I HAVE been using the Wonders. But it really starts after 300 AD. I haven't had TIME to use them before then. In general, as long as I can get to 1000 AD with a decent amount of good cities, tech lead, and no-economic collapse, I win.

EDIT: The 76 BPT is quite good by my standards. That's because the map was special, and I couldn't war. It's significantly better than, oh -176 gold/turn at 0% science.

EDIT 2: I have a very good game-sense. As a general rule, I know when I have to do something NOW. For example, I stopped building settlers for a while because I knew that blocking city would do its job. Instead, I switched to Wonders.

As I see it, city placement isn't that important. As long as those important tiles (like floodplains) get worked by some city, eventually, it's cool. I generally place my initial cities to get something I IMMEDIATELY NEED (like Stone, or horse, or a blocking city- and since I generally don't play creative civs, these cities can be rather ugly). Etc.. I win the game because I win all the short-term battles. Who cares about little things when all you need to do is to be FIRSTEST WITH THE MOSTEST.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Well, if you take into account that he has the techlead by 300 AD with those techs (!) it seems he doesn't need to start to bring them to use apparently, because the AI is extremely slow on this map. Therefore, he probably should be able to maintain the techlead even without abusing the wonders at all ~ Given his cityplacement, tile improvements, city micro and that he has ONE single GP (which is a GM on his way to a trademission) are sure calls to say that he has alot of holes in his gameplay. And it doesn't even stop there, those are only the most crucial parts i remember off the cuff.

I'm not trying to be mean, but he's insisting on this game to be a good example of his strategy working, which, as it seems, isn't the case. Given the tech speed this map's more like Prince difficulty.

So why don't you go and play the map?

This isn't the only Emperor game I've played btw. Check out the Emperor series. For some reason, in ALL my games the computer tends to tech rather slowly.

In this game, one of the reasons the comp teched so slowly was because I GOT ALL THE WONDERS.

 

[Xpl]

In this game, one of the reasons the comp teched so slowly was because I GOT ALL THE WONDERS.

This is irrelevant. Granted some wonders help techpace in some way, Great Library, Colossus, Parthenon etc. But getting ALL the workers doesn't necessarily grant you a huge tech lead.

Just my little quip that I just had to get off my chest.

 

[ahcos]

So why don't you go and play the map?

This isn't the only Emperor game I've played btw. Check out the Emperor series. For some reason, in ALL my games the computer tends to tech rather slowly.

It's pretty much a waste of time for me to play that map. I've looked into your save and know alot of relevant information, that's one of the major reasons for me. You'll get what i meant when you play higher difficulties, just do yourself a favor and go play that map again as soon as you're able to beat Immortal 90% of the time. There are other players that have done the map already, take a look into ghpstage's spoilers and you get a feeling for what i mean. And he doesn't even have the wonders you do, still manages 138 BPT at a pretty similar date to yours.

In this game, one of the reasons the comp teched so slowly was because I GOT ALL THE WONDERS.

This usually slows the AI down, but not even close to the amount you're facing on that map. The techpace is extraordinary slow here, with or without wonders.

 

[Ghpstage]

In this game, one of the reasons the comp teched so slowly was because I GOT ALL THE WONDERS.

The real reason for the level of slowdown seen in that game is that all the AIs that aren't your neighbours are more or less semi isolated.

EDIT - Found another enormous factor, Inca declared war on Freddy at some point. In my game Inca peace vassaled......
EDIT 2 - Hadn't noticed my game being mentioned so,

2. I haven't taken a look into his saves, but given that he has more techs and more BPT, he did something right that you did wrong.

You probably don't want to look, its awful.
After my original scouting I decided by plan A (coastal city spam + GLH and/or Colossus and explore western landmasses) would probably be unfair for comparison as it made use of map reading knowledge that isn't very common, so I used plan B which was Pyramids and vertical growth. I did a very bad job of it too so all my game really proved is that if you know what your doing you can get away with a lot of mistakes, even on Emperor.

 

[MarigoldRan]

It's pretty much a waste of time for me to play that map. I've looked into your save and know alot of relevant information, that's one of the major reasons for me. You'll get what i meant when you play higher difficulties, just do yourself a favor and go play that map again as soon as you're able to beat Immortal 90% of the time. There are other players that have done the map already, take a look into ghpstage's spoilers and you get a feeling for what i mean. And he doesn't even have the wonders you do, still manages 138 BPT at a pretty similar date to yours.



This usually slows the AI down, but not even close to the amount you're facing on that map. The techpace is extraordinary slow here, with or without wonders.

I do beat immortal 90% of the time.

EDIT: I did look at GHP's game. Lol. You call that better?

1. I've got the blocking city, that he doesn't have.
2. He's already used most of the forests around his capital and Nottingham. I haven't.
3. His base science per turn is slightly higher. But the reason was because I was sacrificing for Wonders that he doesn't have.

How exactly is my game any worse than where he is? Or are you just going to do your typical sthick, "oh well, since I'm so much more awesome than everyone else, there's no need to respond except in an arrogant and pretentious tone?"

 

[Inso]

Worker first always! That's all there is to say on the matter, its pretty rare for worker first not to be the best option. I just love my pigs and wheat as early as possible, I like to eat and so do my citizens.

 

[MarigoldRan]

This is irrelevant. Granted some wonders help techpace in some way, Great Library, Colossus, Parthenon etc. But getting ALL the workers doesn't necessarily grant you a huge tech lead.

Just my little quip that I just had to get off my chest.

Um. If I have the GLH and the Collossus, the computer doesn't. Thus, their tech pace is slowed slightly. Seems logical.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Worker first always! That's all there is to say on the matter, its pretty rare for worker first not to be the best option. I just love my pigs and wheat as early as possible, I like to eat and so do my citizens.

They can eat fish and clam chowder. With crabs. My citizens live on the seafood diet.

 

[Xpl]

Um. If I have the GLH and the Collossus, the computer doesn't. Thus, their tech pace is slowed slightly. Seems logical.

Yes slightly, the change isn't that game breaking. I'm pretty sure that not building any wonders can be just as effective or more effective.

 

[ahcos]

I do beat immortal 90% of the time.

EDIT: I did look at GHP's game. Lol. You call that better?

1. I've got the blocking city, that he doesn't have.
2. He's already used most of the forests around his capital and Nottingham. I haven't.
3. His base science per turn is slightly higher. But the reason was because I was sacrificing for Wonders that he doesn't have.

How exactly is my game any worse than where he is? Or are you just going to do your typical sthick, "oh well, since I'm so much more awesome than everyone else, there's no need to respond except in an arrogant and pretentious tone?"

You win 90% Immortal maps? To be perfectly honest, i doubt that given how you play that Emperor map.

1. That blocking city is pretty much worthless beside the resource you don't need. It's blocking awful land, so what you need it for?
2. I haven't taken a look into his saves, but given that he has more techs and more BPT, he did something right that you did wrong. It's not only about "I'll have 300 bpt @ 1000 AD" but also, and most of the times that's even more important, about "I have 150 BPT @ 1 AD and this will win me Lib". You're failing in this regard, and not seeing that let's me doubt that you win Immortal 90% of the time.
3. Wonders don't help you if you do not put them into good use.

I'm not too sure why you say i'm arrogant, maybe because i made clear that i'm tired of arguing with you. Obviously, that won't change now, and as it seems this will be my last post in this thread. Sorry to say that, but arguing with you is a timewaste, and apparently alot of other posters had that insight long before me.

 

[MarigoldRan]

You win 90% Immortal maps? To be perfectly honest, i doubt that given how you play that Emperor map.

1. That blocking city is pretty much worthless beside the resource you don't need. It's blocking awful land, so what you need it for?
2. I haven't taken a look into his saves, but given that he has more techs and more BPT, he did something right that you did wrong. It's not only about "I'll have 300 bpt @ 1000 AD" but also, and most of the times that's even more important, about "I have 150 BPT @ 1 AD and this will win me Lib". You're failing in this regard, and not seeing that let's me doubt that you win Immortal 90% of the time.
3. Wonders don't help you if you do not put them into good use.

I'm not too sure why you say i'm arrogant, maybe because i made clear that i'm tired of arguing with you. Obviously, that won't change now, and as it seems this will be my last post in this thread. Sorry to say that, but arguing with you is a timewaste, and apparently alot of other posters had that insight long before me.

So, YOU ARE ARROGANT. Well, that's fine. Some posters have stopped posting. But new ones have come up. I guess it depends on the personality of the poster, doesn't it?

World Wonders ALWAYS present benefits. In the form of GPP benefits. And in the fact that the computer doesn't have it.

Furthermore, I AM using their active benefits. Notice that I'm running Representation, all my cities are coastal, and I'm not making many cottages (why? I have the Collossus).

Or perhaps your arrogance blinds you to these facts?

Oh, btw, I won liberalism easily.

Finally, that "useless blocking city" turned into a very useful and productive research city in another 600 years or so. Without it, I don't think I would have gotten the Oxford easily.