Torakami_Bltzen
Pigasus
you know the trade system needs work
when the ai wont accept 7 techs for 1 gpt
- Thread starter Torakami_Bltzen
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Torakami_Bltzen
Pigasus
so am i to assume that every ai in every game of civ i've ever played on any difficulty (i've played games up to monarch difficulty... lost in monarch but i can win on regent) never ever ever gives gpt for any reason? because no matter what i ask for it i never get it, for fun i have offered them all of my gold, all of the techs i have, all of the luxuries and resources i can give all for 1 gpt and never gotten it
DiamondzAndGunz
Lurking
Perhaps you should try higher diffs. On lower diffs, they tend to have less money available, especially early in the game. Try playing on higher diffs, and trading with civs later in the game, that have large empires. Under those circumstances, you could get GPT for lots of things, even something like a world map, sometimes.
shirleyrocks
Prince
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2001
- Messages
- 441
Another reason could be that your reputation is preceeding you. If you've ever broken a GPT agreement of any kind (intentionally or unintentionally...that's a whole different thread), the AI will be VERY hesitant to enter into a new GPT agreement.
Siegmund
King
I am finding the same thing --- even with a sterling reputation, and even with a large AI civ, it will happily offer me 100 gold up front, but refuse 1 gpt for the same trade. The only times I have EVER gotten gpt out of the AI in medieval times is from "our troops are approaching, discuss peace while you still can" when it is so desperate it offers me everything it has so I will leave their last city alone for another 20 turns.
Lord Vetinari
Patrician of Ankh-Morpork
Well, i got a civ to give me 35 gpt for mil trad. 
spycatcher34
Emperor
It really depends on your relationship to the civ.. if they dislike you the chance of them giving such a balanced thing as GPT is not as likely to occur.
Tacit_Exit
King
There's definately a distinct "on/off" switch for gpt deals; the AIs will either refuse all such deals no matter how apparently tempting or they will enter into such deals according to what they have available/nature of offer.
What the threshold for this on/off switch I won't pretend to understand, however; I haven't investigated enuff when its occurred in my games.
What the threshold for this on/off switch I won't pretend to understand, however; I haven't investigated enuff when its occurred in my games.
JoseM
Roman Emperor
strange, i have gotten 700+ gpt from the ai many times. Btw i have the original Civ3 , no PTW.
Hurricane
Sleeping Dragon
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Messages
- 1,197
The different attitudes/switches and reputation the AI might have with you has nothing to do with this case. This is a simple matter of the AI not earning 1 gold per turn. They will NEVER accept any kind of deal if they don't have the money. And as you probably have noticed, that same rule applies for the human. You can never buy for more gpt than you earn per turn. What makes this look so strange is the fact that the AI can't change their tax allocation in mid-turn, and they are thus unable to buy those techs no matter how much they would like to.
Bose
Antipodean
I had the same problem, but for research i played one of the high levels (and got shat on) but received some pretty sweet gpt deals. They never seem keen on the low levels, even if you try and trade Matt P's mum.
I have on many occasions found myself losing gpt for awhile as I try to be the first to a tech. I am fairly certain the AI does the same thing sometimes.
Or it could be your reputation as several others have said. You could try offering them a luxury or resource to see if they even have the gpt, and if they are willing to do that, then it is your reputation causing the problem.
Or it could be your reputation as several others have said. You could try offering them a luxury or resource to see if they even have the gpt, and if they are willing to do that, then it is your reputation causing the problem.
TheNiceOne
Emperor
There are many misconceptions here, but the AI trading algorithm is quite logical, but all the rules are set in stone even when they don't seem to make sense.
One of those rules is that the AI will never accept to pay something that it currently don't have. So it will never accept to pay 1gpt if it don't have a positive income. Similarily, it will never accept that you pay it 1gpt if you don't have a positive income, even if you have 1000 gold in cash.
The AI will never hesitate to give you per turn deals if it has the income - but it will never accept a deal where both sides pay the same type of goods, so it will never accept to pay 1 gpt to receive 2 gpt. If you want such a deal you can simply give it 1 gpt though.
If you have broken previous deals, there is another rule the AI starts following: It will now not accept any deal where the AI gives something directly (cash, map, tech etc.) and you give something that shall last for 20 turns (resource, lucury, gpt). This is quite logical, because if you break this deal after one turn, you have got what you wanted (the tech) while the AI looses 19 of the 20 turns it expected to be paid.
The AI will still happily accept all other types of deals though, since the AI won't loose out if any other types of deal is broken.
One of those rules is that the AI will never accept to pay something that it currently don't have. So it will never accept to pay 1gpt if it don't have a positive income. Similarily, it will never accept that you pay it 1gpt if you don't have a positive income, even if you have 1000 gold in cash.
The AI will never hesitate to give you per turn deals if it has the income - but it will never accept a deal where both sides pay the same type of goods, so it will never accept to pay 1 gpt to receive 2 gpt. If you want such a deal you can simply give it 1 gpt though.
If you have broken previous deals, there is another rule the AI starts following: It will now not accept any deal where the AI gives something directly (cash, map, tech etc.) and you give something that shall last for 20 turns (resource, lucury, gpt). This is quite logical, because if you break this deal after one turn, you have got what you wanted (the tech) while the AI looses 19 of the 20 turns it expected to be paid.
The AI will still happily accept all other types of deals though, since the AI won't loose out if any other types of deal is broken.
Oh, it's logical (as in "predictable") when you know the rules. It's still dumb, though. 
If you have broken a per turn deal, then:
AI gives: bronze working
You give: masonry
=> AI accepts
AI gives: bronze working
You give: masonry + 1 gpt
=> AI refuses
The AI logic really ought to be to discount per turn offers with the reputation instead of outright refusing them with hard rules. For example if the discount factor of a frequent deal breaker is zero then the logic would be:
AI gives: Bronze working = 100 g
You give: Masonry + 1 gpt = 200 g + 1 gpt * 0 = 200 g
==> 200 g > 100 g ==> AI accepts
(I made up the tech prices. Just an example.)
Of course, this wouldn't change the rep hit effect of breaking deals (factor=0) but it would:
A) produce more intelligent seeming answers from the AI.
B) allow the generalization of trade reputation, because who said it has to be either 1 or 0? Instead it could be a floating value ranging from 1 (honours his deals) to 0 (a fraud).
Ah well, maybe in Civ5...
If you have broken a per turn deal, then:
AI gives: bronze working
You give: masonry
=> AI accepts
AI gives: bronze working
You give: masonry + 1 gpt
=> AI refuses
The AI logic really ought to be to discount per turn offers with the reputation instead of outright refusing them with hard rules. For example if the discount factor of a frequent deal breaker is zero then the logic would be:
AI gives: Bronze working = 100 g
You give: Masonry + 1 gpt = 200 g + 1 gpt * 0 = 200 g
==> 200 g > 100 g ==> AI accepts
(I made up the tech prices. Just an example.)
Of course, this wouldn't change the rep hit effect of breaking deals (factor=0) but it would:
A) produce more intelligent seeming answers from the AI.
B) allow the generalization of trade reputation, because who said it has to be either 1 or 0? Instead it could be a floating value ranging from 1 (honours his deals) to 0 (a fraud).
Ah well, maybe in Civ5...
Grille
panel insect
I used to understand the concepts of trading, but I was surprised in a recent game about Bismarck:
I wanted a tech (cheap one, but can't remember) and asked: What would you need for ...?
answer: around 20 gpt & map. I offered lump sum (+map) of 300,...,1000 and he did not accept, finally got it for a gpt deal. I couldn't remember any rep hits and Bismarcks treasury was always near to zero, so I was guessing another ai would have demanded that sum instantly from him. On the other hand, he had a very strong military.
I don't think the ai is so *smart* to force me into a gpt deal and let me get a rep hit by breaking that deal (I had MPP with China, so...).
Any similar observations?
I wanted a tech (cheap one, but can't remember) and asked: What would you need for ...?
answer: around 20 gpt & map. I offered lump sum (+map) of 300,...,1000 and he did not accept, finally got it for a gpt deal. I couldn't remember any rep hits and Bismarcks treasury was always near to zero, so I was guessing another ai would have demanded that sum instantly from him. On the other hand, he had a very strong military.
I don't think the ai is so *smart* to force me into a gpt deal and let me get a rep hit by breaking that deal (I had MPP with China, so...).
Any similar observations?
TheNiceOne
Emperor
It's dumb of course, but I have absolutely no problem with the fact that it won't accept the deal you give in your example. If you want to give the AI 1gpt for free in addition to what it accepts, then do it independant of any other trade.Originally posted by Pembroke
Oh, it's logical (as in "predictable") when you know the rules. It's still dumb, though.
But I agree with your idea, it would be better if the AI calculated you per turn offers by multyplying it with a percent based on how much it trusted you, ranging from 0 - 100%.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
I'd also like to see the % rule depending on trust. After all, it is what humans do all the time....
Aggie
Deity
Theniceone makes a lot of sence, but I'm afraid that we have to live with the fact that a rep hit ruins your chances to make good gpt deals (with you on the buying side).
