When to irrigate? When to mine?

[stwils]

I was reading one of the Training Day games, and the trainer said it did not do any good to irrigate in Despotism but wait until Monarchy or Republic.

That was news to me. And I don't understand. It was in the early game and it seemed mining was OK to do.

I know a lot depends on the map, but in what order do you irrigate, mine, and build roads? I figure roads is always first, right? What effect does government have on which you do?

Can't find any of this in the manual. %$#@%

stwils

 

[amadeus]

I build roads so I can move workers to that spot, the mine most of the terrain. If it's grassland around me, I'll mine every spot of it, each mined grassland will provide the standard 2 food -- enough to support a citizen.

Don't try and build cities into the 30's-40's -- it's not worth it. Production slows when population grows beyond the amount the squares the city has (into entertainers, etc.)

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by stwils
I was reading one of the Training Day games, and the trainer said it did not do any good to irrigate in Despotism but wait until Monarchy or Republic.

That was news to me. And I don't understand. It was in the early game and it seemed mining was OK to do.

Despotism suffers from a "tile penalty" feature. While in despotism, any tile that produces more than 2 of any product (food, shields, gold) will produce one less than it would under the more advanced forms of government. This means that grassland (base 2 food) won't produce anything extra through irrigation (+1). The irrigation adds a food production, bringing the total to 3, but the Despotism tile penalty reduces the 3 back to 2 -- right where you started. However, mining a grassland (base shield 0) or a grassland with minerals (base shield 1) will generate an extra shield (since you don't exceed 2 shields and incur the penalty).

Once you switch to Monarchy or Republic, the tile penalty goes away and it may make sense to go back and replace some of your mines with irrigation.

Keep in mind that, as you say in your post, a lot depends on the map -- it may make sense to irrigate even while in Despotism (deserts / flood plains or where you find bonus resources).

 

[D9phoenix]

Most of my personal games i just set up the terrain how i want it to be under democracy no matter what government i am in atm. It helps speed up the end game considerably, but can slow the ancient era up abit.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Catt explained the reason for not irrigating grassland while in Despot.

As far as in what particular order you would road, irrigate, or mine depends on what you need done. Very early in the game if you want max commerce/science always road a tile when your worker gets to a tile. With my playing style I want max production at the start, and commerce isn't real important (science at 0%), so my worker mines a tile before roading it. So lets say it takes 2 turns to road a tile and 3 turns to mine (industrious civ). If you road first, you get +3 gold. If you mine first you get +2 shields. This would be +6 gold or +3 shields if you don't have an industrious civ. If I'm on a luxury, though, I will road first to get the luxury/resource hooked up faster. Also, roading a tile may help if you have units that will be leaving the city that could benefit from the extra movement of the road.

If you have an abundance of workers or/and you want several workers to work a mountain, you may want to have the first worker(s), roading the mountain so hopefully the road on the mountain will be complete before the other workers get there to railroad/mine the mountain and not waste a movement point, so they can complete the mine/railroad sooner.

 

[Tassadar]

Logicaly what need water? Cow and wheat. Even in despotism an irrigated cow on plain give 3 food 2 shield if on grassland then its 4 food 1 shield.
I know on upper level like emperor this can bring your city into revolt too quick but a 10 % lux worth the growth IMHO. Sometime if you have 1 wheat and 1 cow you dont even need a granery before it reach size 6.
An irrigated cow or wheat allow you to put more guy on hills or golden mountain.
I will always irrigate cow and wheat. You can easily pop rush a temple whitout too much problem in a fringe city.

In despotism i always mine shielded grassland, this give 2 food 2 shield, pretty good, later on it depend on the situation, if my city have several mountain then i need to irrigate everything possible.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I connect everything with roads as a priority. I mine hills and mountains and the squares around my major cities early on when I want to build wonders. When a city is hungry, irrigate over the mines.

 

[TedG]

It's always a good idea to mine the grassland/shield tiles, so that later on when you build a railroad there, you'll get three shields from the tile instead of two, as opposed to a regular grassland tile that would still only get two shields.

 

[stwils]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Catt explained the reason for not irrigating grassland while in Despot.
So lets say it takes 2 turns to road a tile and 3 turns to mine (industrious civ). If you road first, you get +3 gold. If you mine first you get +2 shields. This would be +6 gold or +3 shields if you don't have an industrious civ. .

But if you did that, and were in Despotism, wouldn't you lose 1 gold and 1 shield per turn? That is, if any square producing more than 2 of food, shields, or gold gets penalized...

Not sure I have a handle on this yet.

stwils

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Úse the 'show food and production on tile' - option in the preferences. You will see two green dots on a grassland tile - two food. Some will also have a white dot - 1 production. mine these first. Usually, there's enought tiles around a city with dots as well as forests and so on that you can use to max production.

Then, when you get out of despotism and your cities start to grow, irrigate the food-only tiles.

Do build huge cities, from a certain point on they give you lotsa points but since they use all possible tiles the new citizens are automatically specialists. Often far more beneficial than more production, because late in the game a lot of production is wasted anyways (Like you build a 80-cost building or 100-cost unit in a 73 production city. Loose 64 and 46 production respectively.)

 

[Exsanguination]

Originally posted by stwils



But if you did that, and were in Despotism, wouldn't you lose 1 gold and 1 shield per turn? That is, if any square producing more than 2 of food, shields, or gold gets penalized...

Not sure I have a handle on this yet.

stwils

He is saying if you road first, then mine (4 turns to road, 6 to mine), you will get +6 extra gold from the initial road. If you mine first, you don't get that benefit. The mine will still give its +1 benefit (on a shield grassland, making it a 2/2/1 with a road [no river, with +1 commerce].

For instance, if you try to mine a plains cow, which is ordinarily 2/2/1 with a road and no river, it will make no difference (+1 shield from mining, tile penalty in des. -1 negates it).

And hey Bamspeedy - that was a good point. I always mine first, but never thought of the gold benefit. Smart one, there.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by stwils



But if you did that, and were in Despotism, wouldn't you lose 1 gold and 1 shield per turn? That is, if any square producing more than 2 of food, shields, or gold gets penalized...

Not sure I have a handle on this yet.

stwils

Only if the tile is producing more than 2 of one item is that item then penalized. To use grassland as an example again, roading a grassland tile generates an extra commerce (but doesn't take it above 2 commerce - so no penalty - you enjoy the commerce bonus of the road). Mining a grassland tile produces one extra shield (but doesn't take it above 2 shields - so no penalty - you enjoy the production bonus of the mine).

To chime in on Exsanguination's explanation of Bamspeedy's excellent point, if the end goal is to have the grassland tile both roaded and mined, then the total worker time will be 5 turns (assuming an industrious civ), regardless of which (road or mine) you choose to build first.

Roading first and then mining produces the following over five turns: a road and a mine, and +3 gold over the three turns that your worker was building the mine (since the road was built after turn 2).

Mining first and then roading produces the following over five turns: a road and a mine, and +2 shields over the two turns that your worker was building the road (since the mine was built after turn 3).

Bamspeedy's point was that a city may be more in need of commerce or shields, and or your units may be able to take advantage of an earlier road -- it is these factors which determine whether to road or mine first -- either way will take 5 turns total.