[BTS] Where is my granary bonus?

[Fippy]

Yep, all overflow food is lost with avoid growth.
edit: wrong

 

[krikav]

I tested this.
First set up, granary is completed and we land at 21/22 food.

Spoiler :

First test, working just the hill (1F).

Spoiler :

This should add one food to the food bar to 22/22, and place 1F in the granarys inner storage.

Next turn, toggle of avoid growth and work the pig. This should add 6 food into the granarys inner storage (for a total of 7) and provide 6 food overflow.
We should land at 13/24 food.

And we do. No suprise here.

Second test, working pigs one turn with avoid growth.

Spoiler :

Now we work the pigs, only 1 out of the 6 food will be applied to the food bar. But what is added to the granarys inner storage? Is it 1 or is it 6??

Next turn we toggle of avoid growth again. And work pigs again.
6 food will be applied to the food bar and overflow, and also be stored in the granarys inner storage. If only 1 was added the previous turn, we would now end up with 7 food in the granarys inner storage and again land at 13/24 food.

If 6 food was added to the inner storage though... We would get 6+6 = 12 food in the granarys storage, however it would be capped at 11 (half of 22).
If thats the case, we would end up at 11+6 = 17/24 food.

And we do end up at 17/24 food the following turn.
It appears that food "wasted" through avoid growth still is applied to the granarys inner storage.

So, @elmurcis Your question "is it best to use max food available from tiles (from pure Granary point of view)?" is in light of this answered with "yes", although specific situations might have nuances.

 

[Fippy]

wow i was 99% sure like Izuul, we tested so much with granaries back then ~~
This makes avoid growth a total must-use oO

 

[Anysense]

Nice to learn something "new"

 

[Izuul]

I worded my response poorly. That is how I thought avoid growth functioned.

My point is that you lose 5F because your 6F pigs only take you from 21 to 22 food that turn you use avoid growth. If it allowed you to sit on 27/22 and then gain that food as extra OF the next turn it would be OP.

So in this situation you get all 6 for the granary bin, but you don't really net any extra food. The 5 food gained from 11 in granary bin vs 6 is lost by avoiding growth and only getting 1 food on that turn vs 6. And not growing means losing 1T of a grass mine which I assume you would like to work in most situations.

 

[lymond]

Nice test, krik. I was about to do another..oh wow, I learned something new!, but I'd always maxed growth on the turn I avoid growth assuming it would actually max the growth. Think I tested that a long time ago.

I think for me, I've never fully reconciled the food overflow, especially when the granary is not yet full. Assuming no avoid growth turn, what happens with surplus food on turn of growth.

Oh..in your particular test krikav, what happens if you just grow without avoid growth, using pigs and the +6 food surplus, or +5, whatever it is?

 

[krikav]

Since I'm a idiot and deleted the save I can't try it out, but I'm almost certain that what would happen if you have a granary finished and stand at 21/22 food and work pigs for +6 food you get 6 food stored in granary separate, the 6 "real" food you spend one to reach 22/22 and grow, then 5 overflow.
5 overflow is paired with the 6 you saved in the granary and you end up at 11/24.
If ALL you have is grassland (2F) you can then work the pigs again and reach 17/24. Which is the best you could do with the avoid growth case.
And since we often have better than just plain grassland, it's not worth it in this case.

But I'm sure that there are other cases where this nuance in the granaries mechancs could swing you from one tile to another.

 

[Fippy]

Did some tests too, and getting the results Izuul describes.
At first the avoid growth "jump" looks big (after 2t),
but without avoid growth any overflow food also gets carried over.

 

[Tobiyogi]

i have watched the granary mechanisms very closely now in my recent games and I can tell that a good moment to complete or to whip a granary seems to be when the city still needs 3 or 4 more turns to grow. I never used "avoid growth" as I was never so close to a full food-bar. When the city grows 4 turns later, you can be sure that the new growth cycle is starting off from 50%. So half full granary or a bit more, as someone was already pointing out.

 

[sampsa]

i have watched the granary mechanisms very closely now in my recent games and I can tell that a good moment to complete or to whip a granary seems to be when the city still needs 3 or 4 more turns to grow.

This sentence reveals that you don't fully understand granary though, and to me it sounds simply like a wrong conclusion.

If you finish the granary at size 1 (food bar 22), you need to be able to put at least 11 more into the food bar while still at size 1 to get max benefit. If you have a grass pig or a wet corn (6), anything in the range of 10-15 in the bar allows you to do so. 5-tile makes this a bit more clumsy, but just putting 10 is good enough, meaning 12-16 in the bar, and so on. If you can't do this, just turn avoid growth on for one turn and everything is great.