Where to put 2nd city...

[DragonKnight]

I'm a few turns in, and just got my first settler...
This is a prince, fractal, standard size, standard speed game.
I find myself with a decision on where to settle my second city...
But info is limited, and it looks like a tough call...
So I thought I would ping out here for opinions or things to consider that I have missed...

Spoiler :

The only copper so far is to the left. But to the right is wine, horses, and rice.
There are other horses to the south and I do have ivory... so the horse isn't critical to have, though nice to keep De galle from having.
There is more wine and rice west and a little south, but if I don't take the nearby source before he does, I would have to go pretty far around him to get to it, so likely I won't get their first, or it will be tough to hold when the fighting breaks out, which clearly some fighting will be needed, as we are rather tightly packed in here (or seem to be)

now the copper isn't a particularly good site for a city... as the only food source that might be holdable would be the bananas... and there are a lot of unworkable peaks in the area. If there was another copper in the area, I think it would be a no trainer to go to the west. Even so, right now I am leaning toward going west, as I don't want de galle to get that spot first and be right up against my capital. But with fighting likely, maybe getting the copper and axe rushing is the smart thing to do.

Thoughts?

DK

 

[Derakon]

Go west, and then rush Huayna Capac with chariots to secure the copper site. Securing copper is very important, unless there's iron available -- but you don't know if iron is available, so best to play it safe.

 

[DragonKnight]

oh and, on the west, I have two spots in mind... right below the wine, and one below that. The lower of the two is better in general, but I am afraid that De Galle's capital will out culture my city and take the wine spot. So the upper should keep the wine much longer. Also the upper would be a coastal city. But will it get the good trade routes since it is really on an inland sea, not on the real ocean? Does the game actually differentiate?

DK

 

[DaveMcW]

Horses on the coast, they will connect to your capital with 1 road. Copper requires 4 roads.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Did you mix up your right's and left's?

Horses on the coast, they will connect to your capital with 1 road. Copper requires 4 roads.

^^
Clever thinking, I would not have thought that way!

 

[Derakon]

Trade routes only get the value bonus if the target city is on a different continent. Just being coastal doesn't help them any. However, I think cities on lakes still get the +2 trade routes from the Great Lighthouse.

As for where to settle, I'd say it depends on if you plan to take out de Gaulle sooner or later...but remember that settling on the lake also gets you a fresh water health bonus.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

What?
Why are you posting twice?
No one said anything about trade routes? See this thread.
Why would lakes get a bonus?

 

[Derakon]

Also the upper would be a coastal city. But will it get the good trade routes since it is really on an inland sea, not on the real ocean? Does the game actually differentiate?

That's why I'm posting about trade routes. Way to contribute.

 

[DragonKnight]

yeah, I just remember the wisdom, never settle a city one square away form the coast... and wondered if the coast of an inland sea is the same for that...
Cause two squares south of the wine looks like a better spot, but is one square form the coast...

DK

 

[vicawoo]

Need more map vision, and whether or not you want to rush.

If you don't want to rush, and that's the best you have, 1SE of horses, in which case roads won't matter much. Nor will prince barbarians for awhile.

 

[DragonKnight]

Need more map vision, and whether or not you want to rush.

If you don't want to rush, and that's the best you have, 1SE of horses, in which case roads won't matter much. Nor will prince barbarians for awhile.

you would give up the spices (which I called wine before) for a better location?

DK

 

[Dhoomstriker]

yeah, I just remember the wisdom, never settle a city one square away form the coast... and wondered if the coast of an inland sea is the same for that...
Cause two squares south of the wine looks like a better spot, but is one square form the coast...

If you can build a Lighthouse on that inland Sea, then settling adjacent to the Sea (1S of the Spice Resource) is a good idea. I am pretty certain that you can build Lighthouses but sometimes just not naval units on small inland Seas (aka small salt-water Lakes).

That way, your Lake that is 1W of the GHorse will become the equivalent of an Oasis.

If you don't mind waiting for your Cultural Borders to expand, you can even settle on the Spice Resource (which wastes it, but it's a pretty weak Resource anyway) in order to eventually be able to get the Clam. It will be a VERY junky City until you get its borders to expand, though.

1SE of the GHorse will net you a ton of Jungles, leading to early Unhealthiness.

1E of the GHorse on the Forest kind of wastes the Forest and trades a Lake-that-could-act-as-an-Oasis for another GHills square.


Out of those options, I like 1NE of the GHorse (1S of the GSpice For). You can start by working the GSpice For and building a Worker, followed by growing the City using the Rice which you'll want to Farm with the newly-built Worker.


As for the Copper, I don't see why it can't be paired up nicely with a PCow and a couple of GHills squares, by settling 1NE of the GCopper on the GRiv. I'd still go for the Horse location first, though.

 

[Agramon]

If this is prince I'd rush both. Maybe even start with the De Gaulle, since he's got the juicy shrine ;-) This makes the bronze city more interesting to build.

Just a few thoughts. Masonry seems a waste atm. Just mine the stone that'll even give more hammers ;-) After baracks and growing another worker would be good for chopping, roading enemy/future cities. Copper city is pretty decent, river side, all green might get cows.

 

[StrategeryBush]

This certainly looks like a rush map with two civs right on top of you like that. Personally, I trust axe rushes more than chariot rushes. If Huayna gets the copper, a couple of spears will stop your chariots in their tracks. I'd suggest putting your city NE of the copper, where it will get the cow eventually. It is not a great city unless there is food in the dark tiles which would be in its BFC, but it gets you on the road to having two foreign capitols. Given the two opponents, I'd rather get Huayna out of the way first, he's much more likely to stab you in the back while fighting the French than the other way around.

Once you have finished Huayna, take out DeGaulle. That will give you lots and lots of lebensraum.

 

[DragonKnight]

So an update for y'all...
I went with the city near the horses first, and then still manager to get the copper anyway. Though I had to settle south of it, because the cows were taken. So basically, he either couldn't see the copper or he made a mistake. I am betting he couldn't see it. Anyway, with that setup, I was able to wait for cat's and swordsmen and horse archers to take out Huayna, which I did with ease, though it took time. And as I was finishing that up, De Galle attacked. He had spread under me to the south and ran out of room. But he didn't have enough power to take my horse city as I was out teching him slightly and I had left some troops there for just such a need. I don't have the power to take out any serious cities of his, but while I keep the pressure on the one near my horse city, a smaller force is cleaning out his cities to the south. I just got rifling, and cavalry aren't far away. I may need to sign peace for ten turns to build up the troops, but I am confident I can run over him in the near future.
In a stroke of good luck, the remaining three civs are on their own continent, and are balancing each other out a good bit, so once I take all or most of my continent I should have my choice of victory options.

thanks for the advice.

DK

 

[ahcos]

lebensraum.

wow, i was puzzled, first thought "oh, a german using his own language, schöne sache", but then i thought... why should he do this... and googled ... and yeah, lebensraum is a phrase in english aswell ^^ wow, never would've thought that.

personally i'd go to the horse city right on the coast, it's really nice just as davemcw suggested - fast connected without much roads needed, much more time for your workers to chop out charriots. even on immortal it's possible to charriot rush if you have a favorable setting like this - lots of wood, rather easy-to-rush enemies, fast connected second city which isn't even bad at all even in the long run... nice.
be aware that axes might be stronger, but move much slower. with charriots you can be at the city at the same time you declare, that makes it easy to take most of the times.

 

[coanda]

Either E or W would work just fine in that situation... settle W then horse-rush to the E, or settle E then axe-rush to the W. Either guarantees you an excellent shot at winning on anything below Immortal unless there's a really unfortunate land and AI distribution elsewhere.

Personal preference, considering the AIs and difficulty level? I'd try to wrap up the game right here. Settle E for copper. Chop/whip/whatever to get axes as fast as possible, and hit De Gaulle with your first 8. Keep making more while you do that, and hit HC after you finish with mustache-man. You'd definitely be able to kill DG and pick up at least a city or two off HC, and you could probably kill both right away. Considering that you haven't met anyone else yet, odds are good you could take most or all of the land set aside for DG and HC. Also, since you see that copper, it's at least possible that is the only copper in the area - in which case taking it means you could potentially axe-rush HC before he gets spears, even if you pick him as your second target. More scouting would be needed to check that, but it's at least worth planning for the possibility.

At that point, I'd probably just pop open the worldbuilder and glance around to see if there was any really unusual reason to keep playing, and if not declare victory and start a new game - you've won, but it would take another 2000 years to prove it.

 

[mariogreymist]

I'd take the horses, rush HC, then come back for DeGaulle later. If you're on epic/marathon, you can probably do him with axes/chariots, but if you're playing a faster speed, you may need to go for catapults. With 3 capitals (and the land around them), from the classic (or earlier) era, it's hard to lose.