Which Late Wonders are worth Building? (On Monarch)

[DarkSchneider]

Consequently, it seems that most late wonders are gettable on Monarch, as long as you research the required technology before the computer. However, of the late wonders, which are worth getting? Assume of course that the game lasts long enough to get to them! personally, I still think the Hoover/Three Gorges Dam is the best wonder from Civ 1 - Present, and The Statue Of Liberty/Kremlin are the next best late wonders for Civ 4.

 

[Lord Chambers]

I still think the Hoover/Three Gorges Dam is the best wonder from Civ 1 - Present

Neg that ghostrider. It seems cool, but when you consider that a coal plants can be built much earlier, and that 2 unhealthiness is so minor, especially by that point in the game, it's a waste of hammers.

The Statue Of Liberty/Kremlin are the next best late wonders for Civ 4.

I may have to agree. Cash rushing is huge. The biggest thing since axemen.

I don't know why the SoL is so important to most players, but their enthusiasm has me convinced.

 

[sneaky]

The Eiffel Tower and The Sistine Chapel I like to build when I'm going for a cultural victory.
The Statue of Liberty and The Taj Mahal I sometimes build when I can because I like the wonders and the extra specialist/golden age they offer.
Finally I sometimes build the The Space Elevator when it fits my plans.
Overall I build very very little, but these wonders I sometimes build when I have the chance or feel like it.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

None are essential, its really just opportunistic - having a city build wonders when you have 20 cities isn't a big opportunity cost. I like the late game happiness wonders for extra trade opportunities and I like the SOL (but it is hugely expensive) with a big empire.

I agree - three gorges is a waste of time. Kremlin is huge.

 

[DarkSchneider]

None are essential, its really just opportunistic - having a city build wonders when you have 20 cities isn't a big opportunity cost. I like the late game happiness wonders for extra trade opportunities and I like the SOL (but it is hugely expensive) with a big empire.

I agree - three gorges is a waste of time. Kremlin is huge.

I don't know, I still like having the one super production city building the Dam, and then every other city getting the boost from it. I see what you mean about the tech coming later though, as it is though, you still have a while to build factories (with a non-Organized leader) You can use coal in a few cities and then buld the Dam for the rest.

Another thing, why hasn't anyone voted for the University of Sankore? The tech requirement for it (Paper) is generally one I get before the computer (on the way to education) and it gives you +4 research in every city with a temple and monestary. What's not to like?

 

[Bradlius]

It really all depends, doesn't it, on the game situation? If I'm going for Space Race victory, I love the Space Elevator. For Cultural Victory, I like the Eiffel Tower, and at least some of the Hollywood/Broadway/Rock&Roll trifecta.
If I have a large empire, I like the Three Gorges Dam, but it doesn't really pay off for a smaller empire. And of course, a Diplomatic Victory, it's pretty helpful to build the U.N.

 

[DarkSchneider]

I was also thinking, the +2 health bonus from Dariuses apothocary will offset the -2 health from coal plants! I can't wait to play him in the BTS expansion.

 

[UncleJJ]

I didn't vote since the answer to the question is "some of these in some games" but definitely not all in all games, and different leaders in different games would have different results from building the various wonders ... so the question is easy to ask but impossible to answer... at least in a concise way.

Obviously some wonders make for good combinations, like if you do "get religion" and build University of Sankore then obviously build the Spiral Minaret too. Both get a bonus from stone and both need the same other buildings to prosper and same civics to be run.

Other wonders like Kremlin are great if you run a CE with US, but nearly useless for a SE (running Representation) and bit of a waste for a HE that hasn't got a way to raise loads of cash. On the otherhand the SoL is great for a SE that has lots cities on one continent but only moderate for a CE.

A leader should choose a strategy that blends several wonders together that helps his overall aims. It is easy (particularly at Monarch) to spend too much time and hammers building wonders. This is particularly true when you consider that if you let an enemy build the wonder for you, and you build units instead, after the war you end up with his city and the wonder and he is weaker (and less of a threat) and you are stronger. That is a winning strategy in more ways than one.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I don't know, I still like having the one super production city building the Dam, and then every other city getting the boost from it. I see what you mean about the tech coming later though, as it is though, you still have a while to build factories (with a non-Organized leader) You can use coal in a few cities and then buld the Dam for the rest.

Another thing, why hasn't anyone voted for the University of Sankore? The tech requirement for it (Paper) is generally one I get before the computer (on the way to education) and it gives you +4 research in every city with a temple and monestary. What's not to like?

Because it won't work with Free religion which I end up running in a lot of games. If I am warmonging a lot and have a lot of captured holy cities and religions then I'll go free religion for happiness. Or I may want to run it for diplomatic reasons.

 

[DarkSchneider]

Because it won't work with Free religion which I end up running in a lot of games. If I am warmonging a lot and have a lot of captured holy cities and religions then I'll go free religion for happiness. Or I may want to run it for diplomatic reasons.

I spend the vast majority of the game running Organized religion. Having just one monestary per city makes up for the free religion science bonus. Then with the university of Sankore and the Spiral Mineret, you are getting +2 gold, +2 science, +2 culture, +10% science for the monestary in your main religionm, which is very helpful indeed!

Certainly I wouldn't consider running Free religion until after monestaries are obselete.

 

[obsolete]

I'm really surprised people would still go after Kremlin, especially after it got sort of nerfed since the earlier vanilla release. Not to mention... not only was its bonus nerfed, but it has the shortest lifespan of all wonders. It's sort of like, building a castle and having them obsolete in 10 turns lol.

Gorges Damn is very powerful. It has NO obsolete date, and the bigger your empire is, the greater its effects. Its expensive, but if one wonder can save power on 15 cities, well count up all those hammers and time saved. Also the better health is not to be underlooked. Then ontop of this, the fact that you don't have to worry about not having coal or other resources to shut down power, ever in your other cities you can see how big gorges damn really is.

There really is no comparison between silly Kremlin & the Damn. The AI goes after both, but the former is useless even to the AI. YOU, as the human player should know better...

 

[InvisibleStalke]

The Dam is a waste - you need plastics which is a late tech - by the time you actually build it any production city should have already built coal plants (they are very cheap to build considering you already have a forge and factory by then). So you save health only. But by then you have the late game health techs too. Any production city that needs health can build a hospital in a handful of turns. And most of them won't even need health by then.

 

[obsolete]

It's not just health. You are guaranteed POWER. So even if you have no river, and no one will give you any coal, etc, you still get POWER. Even if you have coal, and someone pillages it, you will STILL GET POWER. This is another issue people over-look. And while I won't go over-board into how valuable the GPs produced give (they dont matter much by that stage), it is a big deal. All your other cities can build units, etc instead of polution producing buildings which will be useless after the wonder is complete, and are vulnerable even when working. And not having to worry about meltdowns also is a plus

You should only build ONE coal burning city (if you can get coal), that is the city which will end up building the Damn, as you'lll build it faster. All other cities should only build factories. Then boom, instant electricity when avail an d no hassles.

Now, just possibly, if you find yourself with only one city, then perhaps the damn may not be so usefull as you'll only be benefiting that city, which will probably already have power to begin with. Though it can't hurt getting the Damn, you may ask yourself if those hammers are really worth it, in that case you have an arguement. Though denying the AI from grabbing this wonder if most his cities don't have power yet can be a BIG deal in itself. And thus you may want to build it even if you don't need it.

 

[DarkSchneider]

It's not just health. You are guaranteed POWER. So even if you have no river, and no one will give you any coal, etc, you still get POWER. Even if you have coal, and someone pillages it, you will STILL GET POWER. This is another issue people over-look. And while I won't go over-board into how valuable the GPs produced give (they dont matter much by that stage), it is a big deal. All your other cities can build units, etc instead of polution producing buildings which will be useless after the wonder is complete, and are vulnerable even when working. And not having to worry about meltdowns also is a plus

You should only build ONE coal burning city (if you can get coal), that is the city which will end up building the Damn, as you'lll build it faster. All other cities should only build factories. Then boom, instant electricity when avail an d no hassles.

Now, just possibly, if you find yourself with only one city, then perhaps the damn may not be so usefull as you'll only be benefiting that city, which will probably already have power to begin with. Though it can't hurt getting the Damn, you may ask yourself if those hammers are really worth it, in that case you have an arguement. Though denying the AI from grabbing this wonder if most his cities don't have power yet can be a BIG deal in itself. And thus you may want to build it even if you don't need it.

I almost always build the dam. But I see what all the other people are saying. There are a number of research paths to Assembly Line (for coal plants) that still leave you many, many turns away from the plastics you need for the Three-Gorges Dam. It is a bit unclear though, why Coal Plants do not become available with Industrialism rather than Assembly Line.

As for the Kremlin, prior to the nerf it was probably my favorite wonder. And certainly it is still resonably powerful after the nerf. There are a number of cities that I conquer that are pitifully underdeveloped. Once the Kremlin is up, I put science down to virtually nothing and I save up some money. Then every one of those cities gets it's theaters, graneries, lighthouses, forges, temples, marketplaces, libraries and courthouses built immediately via the state. This is immensely helpful to the cities early growth and probably pays for itself in the long run.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I get lots of wonders even late game. The key is not getting the tech, it's having GE's. I know a lot of people advocate national epic and globe theatre in a food-rich place. Wrong: you don't have the health to handle so much population, and hapiness can be combatted with hereditiary rule and an archer garrison anyway.

I build my great person farm in a hilly place, using national epic and great library in the early game, and when that goes obselete, ironworks. That's a lot of GE's, and a lot of cool wonders. GP farm in a productive place allows you to build the infrastructure necessary to sustain a GP farm in the first place, which is to say, a lot. In fact, you may need every health and hapiness building in the medieval times to sustain that GP farm anyway.

 

[amaterasu]

For me, the culture wonders if going cultural obvi.
space elevator for space win obvi.
UN is useful in all situations as you can usually get the back up plan/ backdoor win, or force awkward resolutions.

Kremlin with whipping is so much fun to use! The overflow made can make armies quite nicly, especially when combined with drafting and cash rushing in smaller cities.

SoL is nice for the free spec, if I have a spare great engineer I will go for it, but otherwise I normally devote my hammers to getting an army upgraded to the era standards.

 

[amaterasu]

I get lots of wonders even late game. The key is not getting the tech, it's having GE's. I know a lot of people advocate national epic and globe theatre in a food-rich place. Wrong: you don't have the health to handle so much population, and hapiness can be combatted with hereditiary rule and an archer garrison anyway.

I build my great person farm in a hilly place, using national epic and great library in the early game, and when that goes obselete, ironworks. That's a lot of GE's, and a lot of cool wonders. GP farm in a productive place allows you to build the infrastructure necessary to sustain a GP farm in the first place, which is to say, a lot. In fact, you may need every health and hapiness building in the medieval times to sustain that GP farm anyway.

Health is a minor worry, you are only losing a few food at the worst of times. Whip the buildings in =] and the maintenance on those archers would be a drag, and you want to use better civics like representation or US most of the time.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I think the reason indutrialism doesn't enable coal plants but does enable factories (I think that's right) is because industrialism is based on steam power (mills etc.)and coal plants are elctric power stations. Does assembly line require electricity?

 

[amaterasu]

I think the reason indutrialism doesn't enable coal plants but does enable factories (I think that's right) is because industrialism is based on steam power (mills etc.)and coal plants are elctric power stations. Does assembly line require electricity?

no, assembly line comes before electricty. Coal power stations heat water, boil it, it turns into steam, makin turbines turn, they are based on heat as well.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Are you sure electricity isn't a pre-req for assembly line? I know it requires corporation. I think.