which mutual protection pact takes precedence

[rysingsun]

here we go. im on deity huge world. im significantly ahead of all my rivals in most ways but not militarily. on that im merely at parity. im growing fast but an emergency has presented itself.

china and england have a mutual protection pact and they are my two most important remaining rivals. china doesnt look like its interested in attacking me but england just moved 20 infantry into my territory in one giant stack for no reason i can fathom other than a surprise attack next turn.

china will not form an alliance with me against england and england will not form an alliance with me against china. this leaves me one alternative. that would be to buy off mutual protection pacts with china and a few other powers. this of course will leave china having a mutual pact both with me and with england. my goal of course is to have china honor the mpp with ME and not THEM. how do i make this happen?

1) i say to england "remove your troops or declare war" and they declare war but on my turn. i destroy all their troops on my own territory but do not invade their territory. i bomb out with my artillery a few roads leading to my cities (inside my own culture boundary) to slow down england's movement and off we go for a slug-out. england sends troops into my territory on her next turn and china declares war on them. is this true or not?
2) i say to england "remove your troops or declare war" and they declare war but on my turn. i do not attack at all. they attack me on their turn and china declares war on them. is this true?
3) i do not declare war but just wait for the "surprise attack" and china declares war on them. is this true?
4) no matter what i do china declares war on ME because he had the mpp with england first. is this true?

as you can see i like number (1) best. number (4) would be a nightmare. please if you are guessing at the answer say its a guess because i dont believe in reloading the game or i would just try number (1) and reload if it doesnt work. but all opinions are welcome.

 

[bouncelot]

I'm pretty sure that MPPs are activated when the ally is attacked. Number 4 is definitely NOT the case, and numbers 2 and 3 are definitely situations when the MPP will work in your favour. I'm not sure about number 1. The fact that they're in your territory is what makes me unsure. If you were to attack troops or squares in their territory, you would definitely be the one declared on.

 

[Turner]

1) is true if England has any troops remaining in your borders at the end of the turn. But don't bomb out your roads, unless you're losing cities left and right. Roads won't slow them down. What it will do is make the wheeled units (if it applies) able to cross mountains and jungles.

2) is true.

3) is true. In fact, it will appear that China declares on them before England attacks you. But I think that's just the way it updates.

4) is not true. It's whoever gets attacked first, like bouncealot said.

Just stay in your territory, and don't send any units into England before they declare, and China will declare on England in a couple of turns.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Isn't the only thing that matters who declares war on whom? If england declares war (after the 'get out of here or else' message) they are the agressor, so china will honour the mpp with you, whether you counterattack england on her territory or not?

My guess would be that 1-3 are all true, and so is 0: Ask her to leave and then attack here wherever she is. Remember, you can't let souvereignty get in the way of national security

 

[Turner]

No, it matters who gets attacked.

Okay, look at it this way:

China has MPPs with England and you. England has MPPs with China and you. So it's a three way triange. Now, if you declare on England, that's okay. That in and of itself doesn't trip the MPP. It's not until you end a turn in England's territory, or attack a unit/city in England's territory that china will declare on you. So if you tell them to get out or declare war, and they declare, China doesn't care. Yet. So if they attack you (which probably they will, the AI doesn't understand MPPs good enough to wait and be attacked in their own territory) in your territory, then the MPP with China gets tripped. This is assuming it happens in between turns. If it's your turn, and you tell them to declare or get out,and they declare, you can attack English units all day long so long as you dont' do it in their territory, and don't end a turn in their territory.

The key is to get war declared, then stay within your territory until they screw up and China declares on them. And it won't be a long wait, unless they're on the other side of an island or something and have to send troops a long way to fight.

 

[Bloodied66]

Use a unit as bait for England to attack inside your territory (something weak that it can't resist). When that happens, then China will declare against England, and you can go to war as usual.

 

[sourboy]

rysingsun

Ack! The importunt mat'er hare es tha Englush. Thare a buncha wankas! You need ta envade nor'than Englund, lad. Find York, and burrrn it. Let them knoow, that Scotland is free. Her sons & daughtas, are thares no more.

Ok, ok, but seriously, don't let expansionist or militaristic Civs hang around too long. They will bother you the entire game, and throw a decent party when they come. France and India and the likes may be bigger pests, but they usually tuck tail and run after a good backhand.

Good move on the mpp with both. Just don't sit back and let them duke it out, make sure you cripple or destroy the opposing one, but that you gain half of the conquered cities too - otherwise your ally may pass you up.

 

[El Loco]

5 words: kick the $#%&/ out of England

 

[rysingsun]

im doing that as we speak

the advice was correct. except it happened a few turns later when they werent in my territory. it was all kind of cool! it eventually became apparent that they and china were trying to get past me to babylon. after china had most of their troops up there i allowed england to go thru. indeed i made a right of passage. when both had gotten past me and well into greece's territory i made a mpp with greece cutting off the route back for both china and england. then when i taunted england into war most of their troops were trapped behind greece near or in babylon.

england declared war. they invaded with all of ONE unit. china greece and america declared war on england. china and england are already at war with babylon. most of the troops of both are in or past greece. what a bloodbath they will all have as they destroy each other way up there! little did weak babylon know that staring at 150 invading troops they will have the pleasure of seeing most of these troops kill off each other .. thanks to me

 

[Turner]

And that's an excellent example of why it's okay to let the AI into your territory. Especially when they're at war with another AI, and by doing something like this you can take advantage of the situation.

rysingsun!

 

[drwsince1987]

Kick the $*&#( out of England.

6 words genius.

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: drwsince1987 - warned, flaming.

 

[Crimso]

Aaa, so desu!

 

[rysingsun]

you know .. when they move all their offensive units out the area they move ALL their offensive units out. there was nothing left except the infantry defencing their cities! they sat there and called to my artillery to take them out. heck i could have taken england and china together the way they did that. this brings up an observation about the ai. they dont prioritize their enemies. that is if england is at war with me and china you would THINK they would be smart enough to call their army back to their own territory or at least back to china's territory. but nooooo... they duke it out in greece and babylon and lose everything.

something gives me the feeling the first multiplayer game i involve myself in im going to get plastered by another human player who says to himself "HAHAHAHA! this guy kicks the butts of ai players on deity so he thinks he is good! so sucker! i dont toss my whole army out of the country to fight foreign wars like the ai!