Whipping + Granaries

Not quite. Only the surplus food matters.

2 farms is worth 4 hammers.

A farm and a mine is worth 3 hammers.

So a farm is 33% more efficient than a mine at this point.

Let's use simultaneous equations:

Farm = f and mine = m

1) 2f = 4

2) f + m = 3

multiply 2) through by 2

2f + 2 m = 6

subtract 1) from this

2m = 2, therefore m = 1

Substitute for m in 2)

f + 1 = 3, therefore f = 2

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hence we have f is twice m or a farm is twice as productive as a mine.

:)
 

Not a clear or convincing explanation. You might be concealling serious errors in your method. It seems likely that the advice you're giving is wrong or insufficiently qualified.

I look at the problem differently. The hammer value of food varies with city size and so the cost of running the mine (expressed in hammers) varies. What we want out of the farm or mine is hammers and they are constant (since units and buildings have a fixed hammer cost) so it makes sense to use the hammer value for food. That hammer value is derived from the slavery conversion rate at that particular city size.

So at size 5 we need 15 food to grow to size 6 (assuming functioning granary). Whipping that 1 pop gives 30 hammers and so 15 food gives 30 hammers and 1 food = 2 hammers. A grassland farm therefore produces 2 hammers.

Now a grassland mine requires 1 food to be worked and produces 3 hammers. So we get 3 hammers out for 1 food (= 2 hammers) input, therefore a grassland mine produces a net 1 hammer output.

With a spreadsheet it's easy to extend this analysis to other city sizes and for other tiles giving a mixture of food and hammers such as plains hills and forests.

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I still need you to justify why whipping a grassland hill is a bad idea. It is not a particuarly productive tile for a small city.
 
Let's use simultaneous equations:

Farm = f and mine = m

1) 2f = 4

2) f + m = 3

multiply 2) through by 2

2f + 2 m = 6

subtract 1) from this

2m = 2, therefore m = 1

Substitute for m in 2)

f + 1 = 3, therefore f = 2

------------
hence we have f is twice m or a farm is twice as productive as a mine.
I take it that was a joke?

The reason the surplus is the only thing that matters is that each citizen eats 2 food. In effect, you need to remove 2 food from every single tile.

Or you could skip the equations and just look at the ingame numbers. 2 farms is 2 surplus food which is 4 hammers at that conversion. And a farm+mine is 3 hammers. This is the reality.

It might help if you think of mines as a 2 tile improvement (3 for the plains kind).
 
I take it that was a joke?

Well sort of but it is also true. At size 5 the farm is twice as productive as the mine and the maths shows it.

Take the situation where you have a new citizen and the choice of working either a farm or mine. You have food from other tiles to support the mine and you're running slavery and HR in a size 5 city. Which tile should the citizen work?

The farm and by a massive margin! It gives a net output of 2 hammers per turn versus 1 from the mine. Can I make it any clearer?
 
I think the important question is: how can you stand the beancounting?

For me, this is exactly the kind of work the computer is best at, and exactly the kind of work I'm playing Civ to not do.

I feel the user interface is severely lacking in this regard.

I would have liked the program to tell me exactly when the whip penalty is reduced from, say, three unhappy faces to two. And preferably I should be able to tell the advisor "whip at 2 unhappy" - one less visit to the city screen right there!

In the same way, I can't be bothered about stacking builds to take advantage of a Thocracy/Vassalage switch.

This is not me being lazy, it's the program not being user friendly. I should be able to tell the program "now I want to build an army. Delay all military production, and keep me informed how many turns until hammers start to decay, so I can plan my civics changes accordingly. And after the change, pour out the troops automatically." Obviously using whipping automatically if I have given the go-ahead.

Same thing with even a simple thing like how I several times would have liked the advisors to handle the simple order "never let my cities become unhappy. If I'm in Slavery, whip as soon as this happens, possibly asking me for a new build if the whip would only be for a single citizen. If I'm not, simply turn on "stop city growth" until I manage to get hold of a new happy resource or civic change."

And again with foreign relations: any good Civ player checks the Diplo screen often regarding trades. The core game provides no help and no automation in helping avoid making this task into a chore. (Yes, there are some excellent mods out there, but 1) that doesn't help core gamers and 2) you only get notifications, you can't set up any kind of reasonable automatic response).

Z
 
I think these conversions also treat whipping as if it is constant. If the granary's almost full, a 2 pop whip will recover a grassland mine immediately.

I suspect optimum whipping does not whip every 10 turns. There would be a whip, a growth timed to increase pop at the end of the the cruel oppression phase, and then growth up to the point where only 1 turn is required to grow after the next whip.

In this way the 2 pop is not just 60:hammers:. For all but one turn the 60:hammers: also includes the :hammers:'s of the regrown tile, so in comparison, for all but 1 turn the 60:hammers: costs only 1 pop, since it is recovered so fast.

Dave is right that the grassland mine is more efficient than bland, mindless whipping, but when whipping is focused in this way one pop is worth 60:hammers:.

For cases where more than 2 pop are whipped the ratio is less favorable. instead of
1 pop being 60:hammers:
2 would equal 90:hammers:
3 would equal 120:hammers: etc.,
approaching the point where it's more efficient to work the grassland mine.

This would make it optimal to invest some into a multiple pop whip and then whip away when it gets to a 2 or 3 pop whip.
 
Well sort of but it is also true. At size 5 the farm is twice as productive as the mine and the maths shows it.

Take the situation where you have a new citizen and the choice of working either a farm or mine. You have food from other tiles to support the mine and you're running slavery and HR in a size 5 city. Which tile should the citizen work?

The farm and by a massive margin! It gives a net output of 2 hammers per turn versus 1 from the mine. Can I make it any clearer?
The farm, but not for the reason you think.

Lets say we have 4 surplus food, size 4 and about to grow. We grow, and the choice is between a farm or a grass mine.

First we work the farm. We have 5 surplus food, it takes 3 turns to grow, so we have an effective 10 hammers/turn.

Next we try the mine. We have 3 surplus food and 3 hammers. 5 turns to grow, so we have an effective 9 hammers/turn.

The difference is one hammer.

For comparison, the size 4 city with 4 surplus food and no hammers has an effective 8.57 hammers/turn, and the size 5 city would have 8 hammers/turn if the new citizen worked an unimproved grassland tile.

So yes, technically the farm is twice as good, but that doesnt mean much when that translates to a one hammer difference. And more importantly, at food neutrality each mine requires a supporting farm. It doesnt exist in a vacuum the same way a farm does.
 
In this way the 2 pop is not just 60:hammers:. For all but one turn the 60:hammers: also includes the :hammers:'s of the regrown tile, so in comparison, for all but 1 turn the 60:hammers: costs only 1 pop, since it is recovered so fast.

2 pop = 60 hammers. Waving your hand over the granary won't reduce it to 1 pop.
 
With all this farm talk you have to keep in mind that you can grow too fast. Yes farms are more efficient; in a globe theater city you'd want farms all over for your production. But they put in the 10 turns of unhappy to curb this. You need to use the right combination of tile to grow back at the rate of 10 turns per pop increase (a glorious 5 if you're aztec) and that may very well mean mines to acheive optimum production.
 
2 pop = 60 hammers. Waving your hand over the granary won't reduce it to 1 pop.

But if you recover the pop back in one turn later, you've only spent one pop.

A full granary at 6 pop whipped down to 4 then regrown next turn goes to 5.
that's a cost of 1 pop
 
With all this farm talk you have to keep in mind that you can grow too fast. Yes farms are more efficient; in a globe theater city you'd want farms all over for your production. But they put in the 10 turns of unhappy to curb this. You need to use the right combination of tile to grow back at the rate of 10 turns per pop increase (a glorious 5 if you're aztec) and that may very well mean mines to acheive optimum production.
Thats what HR is for.
 
A full granary at 6 pop whipped down to 4 then regrown next turn goes to 5.
that's a cost of 1 pop
Slightly more than 1 but i see your point.

But, if you can grow a full pop in 2 turns normally, its closer to 1.5 pop. It only matters at slow growth rates.
 
Slightly more than 1 but i see your point.

But, if you can grow a full pop in 2 turns normally, its closer to 1.5 pop. It only matters at slow growth rates.

1.5 pop + 1 turn * 0.5 pop/turn = 2 pop. (Still!)

The math is easier to understand if you use food as your units instead of pop.
 
Slightly more than 1 but i see your point.

But, if you can grow a full pop in 2 turns normally, its closer to 1.5 pop. It only matters at slow growth rates.

everything's in relation to the 10 turns of unhappy.

I suppose my 1 pop example would actually be 1.1 pop and yours would be 1.2 pop = 60:hammers:
 
The unhappiness only matters from the turn you go over the happy cap. Which wont happen under HR.
 
I think you really have to micromanage to whip effectively. There are very few hard-and-fast rules of thumb that you can use. Some stuff for a slavemaster to consider (summarizing some of the points above)

Good things about the whip:
1) Whipping converts food to hammers at a rate which is usually a good deal. Once you've got your granary built in a city of size 4-6, you can get two hammers per food.
2) Whipping gets you instant results. A granary or settler or unit NOW may be much more valuable than if you had to wait for it.
3) Whipping can remove excess population if it isn't helping you (and probably hurting)

Bad things about the whip:
4) Unhappiness penalty
5) Lower population while growing back to max population
6) The slavery civic makes you vulnerable to revolts in your capital, and will eventually cause emancipation unhappiness

So as with all things, the goal is to maximize the positive aspects of whipping while mitigating the negatives.

What sort of city is good for whipping?
Most cities should whip as often as possible. If you're smart, you found all your cities with a couple of food resources, because you want them to grow quickly. But once they grow to their max size, you don't need so much food. Hence the whip. The only exception to this is cities which were founded to gather resources--that polar city in the middle of 6 beavers and a silver mine. You should make every effort to get some food (fish) in that city's fat cross, but sometimes you can't. Or sometimes you get a city with mediocre food surplus tiles (one cow or something) and a bunch of mines. Such a city will take a long time to grow. Once it is grown, it will give you lots of production and little or no food excess--so positive #1 (efficient translation of food to hammers) gets overcome by negative point #5 (you are stuck at lower population while growing back). You will only whip on the rare occasion when positive #2 (timeliness of whip production) comes into play. You have to judge this by game situation. For example, if I'm playing on an archipelago with the Dutch, virtually every city of sufficient size (even those with a mediocre food excess) will whip a dike the turn after I get access to them. It rarely matters if a city could build it more efficiently the slow way. Having to wait for that dike would more than offset any gains in efficiency.

How do I whip? Some whips are situational (like my dike whipping or whipping out the last couple units of an army or whipping out a couple caravels the turn they are available). You whip to produce something you urgently need. But most whips go on a timetable--the whip cycle. You whip every 10 turns (or 30 on marathon or whatever) on the turn that the unhappiness from the last whip wears off. Some cities (like my mediocre food--high production example) can't whip this often. But most of your cities should if you are smart and found them with food in mind. So whip unhappiness is the limiting factor. This means that for a city with enough food, THE ABILITY TO GET OVER WHIP UNHAPPINESS IS A VALUABLE ASSET. If you ever wear off unhappiness and don't whip again, you are wasting this asset. If you have grown to your happy cap (or have grown enough that you are working mediocre tiles or are having health problems) and there is anything remotely useful that you could whip, you should whip it as soon as the previous whip unhappiness is up.

Is it okay to stack up whip unhappiness?
Sure, if you have plenty of sources of happiness and you have infrastructure you need to build. This typically happens later in the game when you have lots of happy resources, so a new city isn't going to be bumping against the cap. Such a new city should whip (or chop if forests are available) its granary, forge, and other needed infrastructre just as quickly as its food supply will allow. Sometimes, charasmatic leaders starting with happiness resources in the initial BFC can stack whips from the start. It's situational. One other source of whip unhappiness is random events. Sometimes a fire will cause unhappiness. This stacks with the unhappiness from your whips (and therefore costs you one application of the whip for cities that are on the cycle). Keep this in mind when you get the "herbal medicine event". If you get this before you start whipping (get bronze working), it is a wonderful, wonderful event with almost no downside. But if you are already into whipping (or worse, have cities with a couple unhappiness stacked up), you need to think twice about putting two more whips on the stack. Even though 2 health forever in every city is awesome, it may not be worth it if it denies you 2 applications of the whip and/or keeps you below your ideal population.

What should I whip? Game situation dictates this of course, but for cities "on the cycle" you want them to grow back to max population in exactly the time it takes for unhappiness to wear off. Mega-seafood cities grow back faster than this, so you need to build workers/settlers once you get back to the happiness limit. Therefore, you whip your infrastructure. Cities with somewhat less food should build the infrastructure while growing back to happiness cap and then whip workers/settlers. Sometimes, cities are in between and do a little bit of both. Remember, you can and should change builds sometimes. Build a unit or building while you are growing and then switch to a settler once you have grown. Once the whip cycle has worn off, go back and whip the building. Just be aware of the time it takes for items in the queue to start decaying. It varies by speed. Units start decaying quicker than buildings, and wonders don't decay for a long time. Don't leave stuff in the queue so long you lose hammers.

Can I whip wonders?
You can, but you incur a penalty. Generally speaking, therefore, your city should spend its turns building the wonder manually and use its whip cycles (assuming it has enough food to be on the cycle) on infrastructure or something else. Note that you there is no penalty for whip overflow being applied to the wonder. If you want to micromanage, you can use this to your advantage by maximizing the overflow and finish your wonder quicker than you would have by leaving the city alone. I often count up hammers and do a whip just a few turns before the wonder would be done. I time it so the wonder finishes (using the overflow) the turn after the whip. All that said, sometimes, there is something to be said for flat-out whipping the wonder. If the wonder is going to give you huge immediate benefit (pyramids in a civ that needs happiness ASAP), whip it. If you think you might lose the race to a wonder (and/or are a cheater/reloader), whipping the wonder can save you the turns needed to win the race.

Mid/late game new cities build order.
With rare exceptions, whip/chop the granary first. The granary is essential to regrowth and makes subsequent whips twice as effective.
Build the forge next, because it gets you a 25% bonus on subsequent whips.
After that, you may want a lighthouse or a library or a harbor. Rarely, I will insert a lighthouse before the granary or forge on an island city with only seafood. Sometimes, the situation will require you to whip a culture building if you don't have religion/creativity/stonehenge.
Whipping is great on newly-captured cities. Whipping a forge immediately cuts down the excess population that is probably unhappy. Late-game, if you have enough extra folks, you can even whip a factory. Whip the big things first before the little ones of course (because starvation combined with little whips may leave you unable to whip the big stuff, so do the big stuff first). Whipping kills citizens of the foreign nationality, but when they grow back, they are your nationality. So you accomplish ethnic cleansing while rebuilding needed infrastructure--a real win/win. (EDIT--Dave says ethnic cleansing doesn't work that way anymore--you have to build culture. I'll have to check, but he's probably right).

As for point #6 (slave revolts), mostly you just have to accept them as a cost of running the great civic that is slavery. But if you are spiritual, you can mostly dodge it. Time your whip cycles so that all your cities whip at once. Then you can spend most of your time in another civic (emancipation when it's available), and minimize the downsides of being in slavery. Same goes for golden ages of course or if you build the Cristo Redentor. Also, don't go into slavery until you are ready to start whipping (although that's usually right away, it may not be)

I could probably write more, but that's good for now.
 
The unhappiness only matters from the turn you go over the happy cap. Which wont happen under HR.


Well, come on now, you don't start with monarchy in 4000 BC and even once you get there, you'll end up with a whole bunch of unhappy as soon as those units walk off if you're whipping at actual city growth rate instead of cruel oppression rate (if city growth rate is faster). I mean, sometimes whipping faster than oppression rate is warranted but the only time you'll want to do that hyper-extensively is catapult theater
 
Whipping kills citizens of the foreign nationality, but when they grow back, they are your nationality. So you accomplish ethnic cleansing while rebuilding needed infrastructure--a real win/win.
I didnt know that. Also, i think it is so sadistically funny.
 
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