Who will take responsibility?

[Porcupine]

Seems to me that the amount of people discussing the problems they have with video freezes \ anomalies, crashes and memory leakage is a terrible reflection on a proud Civ tradition. Especially when the majority of systems seem to be well above the minimum requirements as stated by Firaxis.

I know that patch 1.52 improved in-game play a great deal, but it seems to have made the techical matters worse, especially for those of us with Radeon video cards. Improving game mechanics is only of use when one can play the game.

Day after day on many civ forums, hundreds of people complain about the above problems and yet no one has addressed them in an official way. Yeah, we can have fans advising on how to modify the .ini files or how you can change BIOS settings to enable the player to play for 20 minutes extra before being crashed out. But this should not be our responsibility.

As long as we, the punter, meet the minimum requirements as set out by Firaxis, we are entitled to a game which plays to a satisfactory standard on our machines. Admittedly, all games have teething problems, but this is beyond that level of problem. And what have Firaxis (or ATI come to that) done to console those who are paying their wages (ie us)? I have seen no statements on the official sites, I have seen no one from Firaxis development or their publishers on any of the fora to help calm or assure troubled users.

Do the people who have bought this game in good faith matter so little to the companies?

Personally, I have few problems - movies freezing, leaders appearing for a second as eyes and teeth only (freaky!). But I am running on AMD3400+ 1GB RAM, RADEON 9800 PRO 256MB with directx9.0c and Catalyst CC 6.1. This is more than enough to kick arse in Battlefield2 but not for the intense graphical modelling in Civ4!?

So while it's good to have fans on this and other sites who are dedicated to helping others, when can we expect an official response to these frequently occurring problems?

 

[baasacJak]

It is so easy to sit behind your keyboard and have a rant about who should get the blame.

I know from personal experience what it is like to write a program on one machine only for it not to work on another. It is virtually impossible to make software that is problem free for everyone. Can you imagine how many hardware/driver permutations there are out there?

Ok, so you say "No I don't expect it to run problem free on EVERY machine, I don't mean everyone, just the vast majority". There are under 24000 members on these forums, most of whom are not having problems with their civ4. Also, a lot of posts are from people who's hardware is below the minimum requirements and therefore not supported.

If you log into a forum full of people compaining about their civ4 problems, it's always going to look worse than it actually is. If the game had worked straight away for you, and you were only visiting forums where people are swapping civ4 tips & tactics or tales of how their last game went, you might not even know that people were having problems.

If you want games that always work when you pop the cd in, buy a console. Due to the diverse nature of the pc, there are always going to be a small minority of users who have problems, and their problems may never get sorted for their current hardware configuration. This does not give them the right to slag off people they have never met in a public forum.

 

[StyxNCa]

I reckon that was a response from an official person?

 

[Philips]

Yes, because most of the people who have had problems have given up by now.

If it were so hard to write software that works, why are other companies able to do a much better job of it?

 

[Zanmato]

I reckon that was a response from an official person?

I thought the same too.

If it were so hard to write software that works, why are other companies able to do a much better job of it?

A valid point but most PC games have some problems on some setups when they are first released and such issues are ironed out through player feedback and patches. I don't think I have a single PC game where there hasn't been somekind of patch for it. Ok, Civ4 played almost like a beta version (yes, it's the worst experience I've had with a game) when it came out but lets at least give them credit for trying and for putting it right through the patches. Although I think the the min and recommended spec should be higher, the 3d geometry is way too detailed for some graphic cards and CPUs to handle. Plus, lets not forget the massive amount of rubbish to runs in background with Windows. The patches are the official response, they say we know you are having problems, use this patch to put it right. PC gaming is so hit-&-miss these days but I find great games such as Civ are only available on PC as console companies find there is no market for these kind of games maybe because they don't come with a mouse and keyboard.

In my opinion, they are taking responsibility for trying to fix the game and hopefully making us fans happy by actually playing Civ4.

 

[MrCynical]

Seems to me that the amount of people discussing the problems they have with video freezes \ anomalies, crashes and memory leakage is a terrible reflection on a proud Civ tradition. Especially when the majority of systems seem to be well above the minimum requirements as stated by Firaxis.

I do think you're overestimating the number of people with problems. Several polls have been done on these forums on the subject and they all come up much the same. Since patch 1.52 about 5% of people cannot get the game to work to any satisfactory extent. Another 15% have minor problems, but can still play reasonably well. I would point out that people with problems are far more likely to be posting on these forums looking for solutions than people who don't, so I reckon that in practice the percentage is probably even lower.

If it were so hard to write software that works, why are other companies able to do a much better job of it?

Which companies? Unlike the claims of some people on here I have not had every game in the past work perfectly. Indeed I suspect ones that worked perfectly straight out of the box were in the minority. Even as version 1.0, Civ 4 wasn't even in the bottom 20% of games I've had problems with. At least I could play it fairly well, which was more than some games in the past, and as of 1.52 it works more or less perfectly. I doubt there are many games where more than 95% of users will be able to run them, at least judging from my experiences. Firaxis are no worse than most other companies on this score (especially as Take 2 made them rush the game out), and unlike most they will keep patching the game. We've had two already and a third is in the works. Most companies won't issue more than two patches whether a game works properly or not.

I know that patch 1.52 improved in-game play a great deal, but it seems to have made the techical matters worse, especially for those of us with Radeon video cards. Improving game mechanics is only of use when one can play the game.

No doubt you're sick of fix suggestions, but have you tried turning the movies off? 1.52 shifted more of the strain of the movies onto the graphics card, so they do run rather worse if you don't have a good card, or one that Civ 4 doesn't like. The actual game runs a lot better after 1.52, it's only the movies that seem to be causing crashes. The game will run quite happily on an old computer of mine with 256Mb of RAM and an integrated graphics system as long as I turn the movies off.

I have seen no one from Firaxis development or their publishers on any of the fora to help calm or assure troubled users.

Soren and a few others have posted occasionally in some of the more constructive threads of the bug reports and general discussions forums. They are unlikely to enter a thread who's main purpose is to hurl abuse at them. Whatever your experiences they have put a game out which is running very well for at the absolute minimum 80% of people and probably much more. In the opinions of most it is an excellent addition to the Civ series. The developers do not deserve the abuse they have been getting on these forums.

So while it's good to have fans on this and other sites who are dedicated to helping others, when can we expect an official response to these frequently occurring problems?

They've put out two patches that have fixed many of the problems. They've told you they're working on another patch, so what more do you want? The official response from many companies would be to ignore you at this stage, so you could at least be grateful that Firaxis is still working on patches.

I reckon that was a response from an official person?

The people from Firaxis usually identify themselves clearly, and in any case wouldn't waste their time in threads like this. I very much doubt this is an 'official person', and in any case it's a fairly cheap way of undermining their arguments. Before you think of suggesting it, no I'm not an 'official person', just someone who feels there's a lot of unnecessary abuse being thrown around these forums.

 

[Philips]

I thought the same too.

Ok, Civ4 played almost like a beta version (yes, it's the worst experience I've had with a game) when it came out but lets at least give them credit for trying and for putting it right through the patches. .

When they do that, I will give them credit. If this were any other game I would have given up and tossed it.

 

[Fatty]

Yes, because most of the people who have had problems have given up by now.

I'd like to be counted as one of those who has simply "given up". This is probably the last PC game i will ever purchase.

Fatty.

 

[Philips]

I do think you're overestimating the number of people with problems. Several polls have been done on these forums on the subject and they all come up much the same. Since patch 1.52 about 5% of people cannot get the game to work to any satisfactory extent. Another 15% have minor problems, but can still play reasonably well. I would point out that people with problems are far more likely to be posting on these forums looking for solutions than people who don't, so I reckon that in practice the percentage is probably even lower.

Underestimating actually. People who bought the game early on and still have problems have mostly moved on to other things. Not to mention that AEG, the PR company that works for Take2 specializes in "guerilla advertising", having employees active on forums like this posing as regular users.

Which companies? Unlike the claims of some people on here I have not had every game in the past work perfectly.

All of them. I have never had so much trouble getting a game to run in about 20 years of experience. This is the worst.

Most software does contain some bugs, but rarely as serious and those tend to get fixed quickly. Civ IV should run more than 20-30 minutes at a time by this point.

And there is no reason to be grateful for those rumors that a new patch is in the works. I paid for a working game, so "gratitude" is not in order.

 

[jomorisin]

well, I am an avid and long-time civver. bit of a lurker post-wise, but I have given up.

there is no point complaining. it is what it is.

I am civ3'ing avidly now.

 

[MrCynical]

Underestimating actually. People who bought the game early on and still have problems have mostly moved on to other things. Not to mention that AEG, the PR company that works for Take2 specializes in "guerilla advertising", having employees active on forums like this posing as regular users.

Well until you can turn up some numbers I remain very unconvinced on this. People who had the game work fine are less likely to turn up here in the first place.

All of them. I have never had so much trouble getting a game to run in about 20 years of experience. This is the worst.

Then all I can say is; lucky you. I've had plenty of games work worse than Civ 4, and several that had problems as bad or worse than anyone has reported for Civ 4. Have any of these since been patched to working state? Nope. Firaxis are very unusual in continuing to support and patch their games for some time after they're released.

And there is no reason to be grateful for those rumors that a new patch is in the works. I paid for a working game, so "gratitude" is not in order.

I ask again: What do you want them to do? If it isn't patches you want then what is it? They are working to fix your problems, and bear in mind that most companies would simply ignore you now. As you've said, they have your money now, and they aren't going to make money out of patching. Is it that you want patches but are just going to complain and abuse them even though they are doing what you want? That's really going to encourage them to work on fixing things. I personally give them a certain amount of credit for listening at all given the insults, threats and incoherent ranting that has been going on in these forums. As for whether you should be grateful, let's just say that people are out there working on something for your benefit that they could get away without doing. If I was one of them, the ingratitude of some people here would very likely have removed any interest I had in helping.

 

[Fatty]

I ask again: What do you want them to do? If it isn't patches you want then what is it? They are working to fix your problems, and bear in mind that most companies would simply ignore you now. As you've said, they have your money now, and they aren't going to make money out of patching. Is it that you want patches but are just going to complain and abuse them even though they are doing what you want? That's really going to encourage them to work on fixing things. I personally give them a certain amount of credit for listening at all given the insults, threats and incoherent ranting that has been going on in these forums. As for whether you should be grateful, let's just say that people are out there working on something for your benefit that they could get away without doing. If I was one of them, the ingratitude of some people here would very likely have removed any interest I had in helping.

It's wrong to think that fireaxis is doing us a favour by issuing patches. We upheld our end of the deal, we paid for a video game. Fireaxis is obligated to uphold their end of the deal by providing me with the product i purchased... a playable video game. Yeah, it's nice that they're still working out the errors and issuing patches... but they owe us this much. It's a sad comment on the status of the video game industry when a company is praised for releasing a faulty product but continues to work on making it "less faulty". The video game industry is in trouble and Civ IV is unfortunately another example in point.

Fatty

 

[MrCynical]

I'm just pointing out that if you want someone to do something, insulting them is unlikely to help.

In the interests of settling the debate on how many people are having problems with Civ 4 I've started a new poll on the subject in the general discussions forum. Even if you are planning to give up and leave can you please vote in this, as I would like some accurate numbers on this point.

 

[StyxNCa]

The people from Firaxis usually identify themselves clearly, and in any case wouldn't waste their time in threads like this. I very much doubt this is an 'official person', and in any case it's a fairly cheap way of undermining their arguments. Before you think of suggesting it, no I'm not an 'official person', just someone who feels there's a lot of unnecessary abuse being thrown around these forums.

Yes, and I felt the person that posted the response was being a bit abusive. Thanks for pointing that out. There are nice ways of discussing things, then there are his ways. The title of his response, "Please shut up." Charming.

 

[pablo01]

Hey porcupine, I feel your pain but since your specs are about the same as mine and are having the same issues I am(was?) having you can try this - I am not sure it has fixed the problem yet because I have not played enough to know just yet but so far it looks good...
Now normaly I would not condone or promote this but if this actually fixed my problem I am going to be just as fursious for another reason. It seems some recent games have employed copy protection that interferes with gameplay, I won't name names but I know this for a fact!
Moderator Action: Warned for piracy.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[pablo01]

Bah, nevermind, it just crapped out again after all of 15 minutes this time, this game is going back on the shelf until the next patch - how annoying!

 

[Zanmato]

I ask again: What do you want them to do? If it isn't patches you want then what is it? They are working to fix your problems, and bear in mind that most companies would simply ignore you now. As you've said, they have your money now, and they aren't going to make money out of patching. Is it that you want patches but are just going to complain and abuse them even though they are doing what you want? That's really going to encourage them to work on fixing things. I personally give them a certain amount of credit for listening at all given the insults, threats and incoherent ranting that has been going on in these forums. As for whether you should be grateful, let's just say that people are out there working on something for your benefit that they could get away without doing. If I was one of them, the ingratitude of some people here would very likely have removed any interest I had in helping.

I quote the above for total agreement. If you want a game that works perfectly as it should then get a console. The reason that console games work out of the box is because the developers know EXCATLY what the console hardware is and can do. There is just far too many variables in PC systems today and it is little wonder that most programs have problems running correctly on a small minority of systems. The patches are FREE and they do actually fix some issues so credit is due in my opinion for correcting the mistakes made on release. Do you think the companies actually want to make patches and deal with issues in their products for months on end without making a dime from it??? This is will be a hard learnt lesson for some people, that I have little doubt of.

 

[FBI Guy]

How about when your problem is you cannot even INSTALL the game due to a faulty disc? I can't even return it since I bought it in the US and moved to Japan. Now I'm stuck with 2 $50 coasters. My emails requesting support (which is to obtain a new disc - I'll return them the old ones first) have gone unanswered. Why? Because they already have my money. They don't care. They (Firaxis) rushed to put out a product and their product sucks. Plain and simple.

 

[Porcupine]

This has certainly divided opinion and I would like to thank Mr Cynical for the great idea of the poll so we can get some numbers.

If I could just address a couple of issues and clarify the position of my original post.

I never meant to attack anyone, I was not rude about any individuals and certainly not aggressive to anyone I have never met. I have, for the record, had a great time so far with Civ 4. Certainly the best in the series and I have played them all. Yes I have the odd video moment but not serious enough to make me want to give up. My gripe was not personal, it was just that what stood out for me on these and other civ fora were the number of people who just couldn't play the game at all, despite having higher specs than the minimum Firaxis detailed. These people, like Fatty above, have paid their money for a game they cannot play.

While I acknowledge the fact that Firaxis developers do contribute to these fora and I have read some very interesting posts about bugs and patch discussions, there is no official stance on the issues I raise above. On 2Kgames and Firaxis websites, their news sections and support sections make no mention of the problems experienced by a number of buyers of their product, they do not say anywhere that a further patch will be released by xx date, and they do nothing to assure the people who cannot play the game at present, that they will be able to when the patch is released.

I never said that I expect the game to work perfectly out of the box. Of course there will be problems. I remember Civ 3 took a good few months to really get sorted, but my point is that all of the people who bought it could play it. Even if the number of owners who cannot play Civ 4 is less than 5% of the market, surely that is still too high in anyones eyes. If their machines are of minimum spec or above, as detailed by Firaxis on their boxes, then it should be at the very least playable. Patches should be, let's be honest, for tweaking, not for base level useability.

Thanks to everyone for the responses here, it shows that this is a contentious issue. I do hope that BaasacJak was not an 'official' person as his tone was inappropriate for this discussion, but thanks to everyone else and especially to Mr Cynical for defending the developer corner well and in good spirit.

 

[baasacJak]

Ok, I haven't read all the replies because there's a lot but here goes...

Alright Porcupine, you didn't attack anyone, but how do you think any Firaxis employee would feel reading your OP?

What's the point in holding a poll on a technical support forum? Won't there be a big bias towards people who are understandably fustrated with the game?

As for whoever mentioned not having problems in 20 years:
You lucky bugger , have you been playing lemmings for 20 years?

One of the worst games for problems? Anyone tried Doom 3? Battlefield 2? Going back a bit, Hidden and Dangerous?

I originally replied to Porcupine because I took both sides feelings into consideration and decided that what he/she said was harsh.

I have written programs for clients and it kills me to see that they are unhappy with it (fortunately it doesn't happen often to me), and so I think Sid and all the Firaxis team will feel similarly, without the need for people to try apportioning blame. They know it's their fault and they wish they could fix it for you, trust me.

Does anyone actually believe that Firaxis want to make a game that most people can't play?