Why are luxuries removed?
- Thread starter VirgilMing
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Stringer1313
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I was also dismayed by the removal of luxuries but after reading this thread can understand why those didn't make it into Civ BE (not same game, exploitative, etc.).
But I think one of the posters hit the nail on the head when they said that luxuries, at least for some, created a fun element that added to the flavor of the game --- so competing for happiness was fun. There was a vying for territory element. But vying for health is not as fun.
I agree with another poster who suggested making the existing resources in Civ BE more interesting, like fruit, silicite, etc., as well as more varied terrain effects. They don't have to be health-related. It would also be nice if the existing resources had an impact that was more intuitive, and didn't require mousing over just to figure out what the hell fruit does.
The way that Endless Legend did luxuries I thought was a brilliant idea --- stockpiling them each turn and then using them for a short-time boost. Maybe they could do something similar for the non-strategic resources.
But I think one of the posters hit the nail on the head when they said that luxuries, at least for some, created a fun element that added to the flavor of the game --- so competing for happiness was fun. There was a vying for territory element. But vying for health is not as fun.
I agree with another poster who suggested making the existing resources in Civ BE more interesting, like fruit, silicite, etc., as well as more varied terrain effects. They don't have to be health-related. It would also be nice if the existing resources had an impact that was more intuitive, and didn't require mousing over just to figure out what the hell fruit does.
The way that Endless Legend did luxuries I thought was a brilliant idea --- stockpiling them each turn and then using them for a short-time boost. Maybe they could do something similar for the non-strategic resources.
Minor Annoyance
Deity
I don't think is is that small towns are more unhealthy, but that they are harder to maintain because of remoteness. Also since this is an alien planet the remoteness of villages has greater danger associated with them.
Acken
Deity
Well the best combination is always a good system that is also thematically sound. I don't mind luxuries being gone. I do mind that there is nothing in its place.
Lucius_
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What do you mean "nothing in its place" more specifically? Do you mean a mechanic that replaces their function (biowells?) or a map resource that affects city placement (affinity strategics?)? Those are two functions of luxuries that have been replaced, sort of.
Acken
Deity
No not in their function, since it's not like you cannot get health in CBE, but in how much of an impact they have in your overall gameplay and strategy. I have a hard time finding a clear definition of what I mean there so let me go with an example
For example while biowell has the same function they do not motivate any terrain choice for health nor can be traded. We could imagine instead that biowells have a terrain requirement (next to river, on grass for example) and each give something to be traded, increasing health, against other important stuff.
I'm not trying to say it would be a great idea in the current state of the game nor that it is the best I can come up with, but I'm just trying to illustrate a system that is more connected to the surrounding game universe (terrain and other civs) like I would have liked and how luxuries are.
But like I said earlier, this weak connection I feel with the map and AI in CivBE is my major problem with it. And that's a shame because during previews they showed a lot of these "get +1 per X ressource" tech/buildings and I was excited by that, I thought they would emphasize that idea of crafting your civ based on your surroundings (especially with a tech web), but it ended up being drown in the mass of spamable stuff giving better results (trade routes, buildings, cities, etc.). Also to be fair, I don't think Civ5 goes very far there either.
For example while biowell has the same function they do not motivate any terrain choice for health nor can be traded. We could imagine instead that biowells have a terrain requirement (next to river, on grass for example) and each give something to be traded, increasing health, against other important stuff.
I'm not trying to say it would be a great idea in the current state of the game nor that it is the best I can come up with, but I'm just trying to illustrate a system that is more connected to the surrounding game universe (terrain and other civs) like I would have liked and how luxuries are.
But like I said earlier, this weak connection I feel with the map and AI in CivBE is my major problem with it. And that's a shame because during previews they showed a lot of these "get +1 per X ressource" tech/buildings and I was excited by that, I thought they would emphasize that idea of crafting your civ based on your surroundings (especially with a tech web), but it ended up being drown in the mass of spamable stuff giving better results (trade routes, buildings, cities, etc.). Also to be fair, I don't think Civ5 goes very far there either.
The TRs don't give that much anymore. They're about 8/10 food/hammers now, with small ETR benefits. At 2 per city, they're worth about 2 tiles each, maybe. Buildings are better, but the best tile ones are Virtue/building dependent. Xenomass can be fantastic if you're Harmony. Flatland for farming can be fantastic if you're Purity. Mines and Quarries can be amazing if you're Supremacy.
Fungus, particularly, is great with Growlabs - a sure spot for a fantastic city as Harmony. Kind of blah for Purity and Supremacy factions.
Fungus, particularly, is great with Growlabs - a sure spot for a fantastic city as Harmony. Kind of blah for Purity and Supremacy factions.
Acken
Deity
These per ressources bonus are still really minor compared to the total yield. That's my point. I really can't agree that 2food from 2fungis in a city for the growlab matter currently in the current version of the game.
Well, or it matters in the most minimalist definition of it and not enough to instigate a feeling of competitiveness to get them in my opinion.
Well, or it matters in the most minimalist definition of it and not enough to instigate a feeling of competitiveness to get them in my opinion.
Acken
Deity
Well actually I get your point, yes harmony fungi will give you more food in that city (at the cost of 285H). But I do not see that as being that important in context sadly. It's good but it feels drown.
Acken
Deity
I retracted my previous comment.
Of relevance to Health is Resilin and Bionics Labs. Bionics Labs gives +1 hammer per Resilin tile, but it also gives +20% Health. This allows Purity cities to grow taller and actually become Health-Neutral better - a Clinic, Pharmalab, Cytonursery, and Gene Garden allow 9 Health only. With Gene Smelter and Bionics Lab, you can do 16 or more easily, without any other supporting Virtues.
Acken
Deity
Yeah I got your point but I still don't find ultimately that it's that important because it acts more as a bonus than something you have to actively play for. The bonus are there, their implementation is just clucky. But to be honest this has also to do that you have to win in 230-250turns so meh and cities still make all buildings so adding one more in the queue isn't that exciting.
At this point it's just more in the realm of how I feel they impact my game and yes maybe I could get a little more out of the game (in performance) by planing with these in mind but since it doesn't feel necessary... meh. I'm hardly moved by the argument that, currently, these make you really consider your locations. I'll let other readers judge for themselves based on what your point of view on the question.
At this point it's just more in the realm of how I feel they impact my game and yes maybe I could get a little more out of the game (in performance) by planing with these in mind but since it doesn't feel necessary... meh. I'm hardly moved by the argument that, currently, these make you really consider your locations. I'll let other readers judge for themselves based on what your point of view on the question.
The bonus is Civ5 Happiness is stronger because it basically says "place free expansion here." Every city with a unique luxury is like that. To a certain extent, Resilin, Firaxite, Basic Resources under certain conditions (Joy From Variety) are like that, but effect is far less dramatic. I was never super-impressed with the idea, and it made certain positions more or less difficult that they already were due to other factors. Thing is, when I select a difficulty level, I want it to more or less stay there. Random map things making the game more or less than I anticipated are okay up to a point, but 5 locations saying "Free expansion here" is a bit much and completely undermines the entire point of Happiness in the first place.
CivBE is Civ4-ish in that you place expansions for the tile output. Titanium is proof positive of that. Anything with Titanium is prime city location. For Harmony, anything with Xenomass is, too. The tile outputs on Xenomass is just insane. For Purity, it's flatland and rivers. The superFarms means you value flatland more than almost any other tile. For Supremacy, it's Firaxite, because Firaxite is so hard to get that you gobble up every site with it just so you can build your stuff.
"Necessary" is a difficult word to parse. Strictly speaking, Civ4 tile outputs weren't necessary, and Civ5's only were because they're stupidly insane (free Settler and insane t20 outputs for Spain is balanced?). I mean, if by "necessary," you mean "Need it to win," then no Wonder in any Civ is really necessary. No tiles, either. The game is not that hard. Never has been.
CivBE is Civ4-ish in that you place expansions for the tile output. Titanium is proof positive of that. Anything with Titanium is prime city location. For Harmony, anything with Xenomass is, too. The tile outputs on Xenomass is just insane. For Purity, it's flatland and rivers. The superFarms means you value flatland more than almost any other tile. For Supremacy, it's Firaxite, because Firaxite is so hard to get that you gobble up every site with it just so you can build your stuff.
"Necessary" is a difficult word to parse. Strictly speaking, Civ4 tile outputs weren't necessary, and Civ5's only were because they're stupidly insane (free Settler and insane t20 outputs for Spain is balanced?). I mean, if by "necessary," you mean "Need it to win," then no Wonder in any Civ is really necessary. No tiles, either. The game is not that hard. Never has been.
Acken
Deity
The problem I have with what you say here is that I could agree that things could be that way and it would be great but in reality isn't due to various issues elsewhere. For exemple the 3 major ressources of civBE. In theory they are this big stuff that synergize with affinities that you fight for, but in practice you can ignore them an win appollo... so bleh.
I also think C4 does it better than CBE but for 2 reasons, ressources are truly critical, a lot more than normal tiles, and the game is a lot harder so grasping any advantage is a necessity (and ultimately fun for me).
As to map being a strong factor and sometimes you'll get a bad map, that's why I play game with RNG map in them and what Civ is about to me. So we just clearly diverge there.
I also think C4 does it better than CBE but for 2 reasons, ressources are truly critical, a lot more than normal tiles, and the game is a lot harder so grasping any advantage is a necessity (and ultimately fun for me).
As to map being a strong factor and sometimes you'll get a bad map, that's why I play game with RNG map in them and what Civ is about to me. So we just clearly diverge there.
Amen to this.
Also, Firaxite plots are deliberately gimped compared to the other two, from what I've read of the resource allocation LUA code. Well, not gimped, but it certain occurs at a lower rate than the other two.
Firaxis appear to have offset this by setting one of the base multipliers to 3 as supposed to 2 (hence why you more often get 3 / 6 Firaxite compared to 2 / 4 / 6 of the others), but I don't think it has a significant-enough effect when it comes to world generation (compared to the other two Affinity resources).
Stringer1313
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I basically agree with everything Acken has said. The larger point is that Civ BE is currently chock full of a lot of potentially interesting but ultimately uninteresting things that convey non-intuitive minor bonuses that ultimately don't matter if you just expand where-ever, b/c those minor bonuses are "drowned" in major ones.
For instance, I guess I'm a noob b/c I had no idea that as purity you should go for flatlands b/c of super farms. That is not intuitive. I guess farms are "earthy" and so purity likes them. Or something. It shouldn't require a spreadsheet to make this game more interesting.
So that's why luxuries in Civ 5, even if some find them broken, were still arguably fun. They: 1) provided very clear bonuses; 2) the bonuses were significant; 3) the bonuses were intuitive, contributing to the feel of the game ("luxuries make people happy"); and 4) they influenced your strategy.
I understand Civ BE is at a disadvantage b/c it's dealing with a fictional sci-fi world so little will seem intuitive to us, i.e., what the hell is a "bionics lab." But I think that if they take the existing affinity system --- which actually IS somewhat intuitive and clear --- and really devote energy to making each affinity system CLEARLY promote a distinct playstyle that fits the "flavor" of being in that affinity, I think that can go a long way.
Also if they take a lot of the current Civilopedia lore and make it "come alive" somehow in the gameplay, i.e., through quests, that naturally illustrate what the hell a "bionics lab" does, for instance.
For instance, I guess I'm a noob b/c I had no idea that as purity you should go for flatlands b/c of super farms. That is not intuitive. I guess farms are "earthy" and so purity likes them. Or something. It shouldn't require a spreadsheet to make this game more interesting.
So that's why luxuries in Civ 5, even if some find them broken, were still arguably fun. They: 1) provided very clear bonuses; 2) the bonuses were significant; 3) the bonuses were intuitive, contributing to the feel of the game ("luxuries make people happy"); and 4) they influenced your strategy.
I understand Civ BE is at a disadvantage b/c it's dealing with a fictional sci-fi world so little will seem intuitive to us, i.e., what the hell is a "bionics lab." But I think that if they take the existing affinity system --- which actually IS somewhat intuitive and clear --- and really devote energy to making each affinity system CLEARLY promote a distinct playstyle that fits the "flavor" of being in that affinity, I think that can go a long way.
Also if they take a lot of the current Civilopedia lore and make it "come alive" somehow in the gameplay, i.e., through quests, that naturally illustrate what the hell a "bionics lab" does, for instance.
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