Why Bother With Feudalism?

[idleautarch]

What, exactly, is the point of the Feudalism government? As far as I can tell its just a novelty (inverse support base) that doesn't serve any purpose. Typically by the time I get anywhere near Feudalism my cities are size 12, most of my opponents are, too, and almost the entire world is occupied by someone. I can't see what possible purpose the government serves.

 

[Roi du Culture]

try a higher difficulty level, and you'll realize that many times you can't afford to researh republic and monarchy. Also, feudalism works well when your terrain is as bad as it gets and you need unit support to conquer the better stuff.

 

[idleautarch]

The bad terrain thing makes sense. Sometimes I get stuck in mountains (damn persia!) and I guess it could be useful in that situaiton.

 

[dexters]

Does the AI use it? and use it correctly?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Yes, the AI knows how to use it. Since the AI can calculate the unit support before switching, it will only switch when it is at war and looks for the Gov with the highest support. Thus, the AI very rarely uses Feudalism, but when it does, it is using it properly.
Unlike the Com/Fasc problem (in wartime, the AI simply look at nothing but unit support, thus Fascism seems great, not considering the huge production bonus from Communism), Feudalism works well for the AI.

 

[dexters]

I recall pre C3C AI's preferred war government was communism. Now that communism is the human's preferred war gov, it is kind of ironic the AI has once agian chosen something humans don't normally choose -_- I kinda wished AI would stick with communism and see what happens.

Perhaps more numbers of variables should come into play so that some AI may go communism while others go fascism, based on their empire needs and capabilities. Possible patch suggestion or pie in the sky dream?

 

[Chieftess]

There've been times I've used it --

Bad terrain as in little or no irragation.
Tight builds on higher levels when I want to make the most of my terrain. (maybe 3-4 core size 12 cities, and the rest at size 6 or lower).

It's good for a quick build up and attack, netting you more income from the AI's size 6- cities.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Perhaps more numbers of variables should come into play so that some AI may go communism while others go fascism, based on their empire needs and capabilities. Possible patch suggestion or pie in the sky dream?

No patch needed IMHO, just a bit finetuning. What's the current support in Fascism? 4-6-8?
If you lower that to 3-4-8, with Commu at 6-6-6, only those AIs with nothing but Metros should go Fascist.

 

[player1 fanatic]

It's actually 4-7-10

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Thanks for the clarification. Then , 4.5.10 would probably help the AI at most.
But the point remains:
Fascism -> Metros only
Commmunism -> many Cities

 

[Gogf]

Feudalism is great if you haven't had a chance to build aqueducts! Even if you had, you can use forced labor to make those cities smaller, and rush production. It all depends on your style of play, developement, and the luck of the terrain.

 

[Ision]

The unit support is not the primary factor. The AI views Fascisms Nuisance corrutiopn as superior to Communal corruption - that IS the main factor. If you want the AIs to choose Commie over Fascism do the following:

1. Go into the editor and change Fascism from Nuis to Prob corruption.

2. Make Fascism the shunned Government of every single civ.

That will do it.

Ision

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

As much as I hate it, I have to disagree, Ision.
We're testing the RaR mod, and here the problem is the AI always picking Fundamentalism (huge support, communal, rate cap of 50%!) instead of Fascism/ Communism, which would be both by far better in any given situation.

Pretty sure you're right about 'How to get the AI turn away from Fascism' in the unmodded game; however, that is not the only mechanism involved. And I think the AI benefits quite often from Fascism, as long as they do not exceed a certain size it's better then Communism for them. Thus, I don't want to discourage Fascism in general.

 

[player1 fanatic]

I think that the problem is that AI routine calculates gold income for AI when deciding govenments, but doesn't do that for shield output.

So, while Communism will give much more shields, due to better upkeep Fascism more often gives slightly more money so AI takes it instead.

 

[Ision]

As much as I hate it, I have to disagree, Ision.

Given the 2 steps I already outlined in a previous post - I know with absolute certaintly that those changes WILL result in the AI taking Commie over Fascism EVERY time.

We're testing the RaR mod, and here the problem is the AI always picking Fundamentalism (huge support, communal, rate cap of 50%!) instead of Fascism/ Communism

As to the specifics of why this is occuring, I cannot say without a complete breakdown of the current settings for all 3 governemnts in your mod. Naturally, at a certain point if the unit support is enormous it will outweigh other factors. That said, all things being about approximate (for example the 4-7-10 unit support & 1 gold per unit cost of Fascism vs the 6-6-6 us & 1 gold per unit of Commie) the deciding factor will always fall to what the AI gauges to be the better corruption level. The shunned/favored status being a very mild factor that kicks in only when the other factors are very very close.

Right off the top of my head I would say that if you increased Fudamentalisms per turn gold cost to 2 or 3 per unit - the problem would be solved. Of course that depends on what you mean by 'enormous' when you describe the unit support.

Ision

 

[Dogmeat]

Yes, the AI knows how to use it. Since the AI can calculate the unit support before switching, it will only switch when it is at war and looks for the Gov with the highest support. Thus, the AI very rarely uses Feudalism, but when it does, it is using it properly.
Unlike the Com/Fasc problem (in wartime, the AI simply look at nothing but unit support, thus Fascism seems great, not considering the huge production bonus from Communism), Feudalism works well for the AI.

Actually, they don't like the communal corruption for some reason. I tried swapping the corruption levels between fascism and communism and all the ai went communism in that game.

Also.. The AI chooses feudalism when they have lots of small cities.
The Celts did that in my game when all their cities were size 6 or smaller.
And they weren't at war at the time of changing.

 

[tomart109]

To answer the original question...

I like Feudalism as a first government, when I'm keeping my towns 6 or below to maximize growth. I've found the free unit support is plenty* for warmongering, and i have all the advantages of Monarchy along with rushbuilding. And, i need the tech anyway...

* you should never suffer that 3 penalty - if you hit unit support ceiling, you have options: build workers or settlers (or rush anything) to reduce a city below 7; found or capture more towns; absorb a worker into a city to reduce unit count, start a war to expend units (thereby capturing more towns, etc .)

 

[player1 fanatic]

Yes, it's a type of government you won't enter into if you already have monachy or republic.

Exempt in case of playing Religious trait.
Then you could do Despotism/Monarchy/Feudalism/Republic

 

[plarq]

So, while Communism will give much more shields, due to better upkeep Fascism more often gives slightly more money so AI takes it instead.

Oh? Commie has bonus shield as well as bonus gold of Democracy and Republic?

 

[Tomoyo]

Oh? Commie has bonus shield as well as bonus gold of Democracy and Republic?

No, it just give you very low corruption, but no gold bonus.