Why do Duns give the guerrilla promotion?

[jarhead_leif]

Question, though, Karadoc. +2 XP for melee units would certainly be an improvement, but would it make the Dun worth building? To me, half of the reason why the Dun's awful is because it's on a building no one wants to get anyway. So unless you're planning some changes in the next version of K-Mod to make Walls more viable, I'm not sure if it'd be too much of an improvement.

What if it replaced the Barracks, instead? So it swapped out the city defense bonuses for the +2 XP you're suggesting, while still keeping the free Guerilla promotion. You could possibly even have it confer a free City Raider I promotion on Melee units (and with Boudica, free Combat I, Guerilla I and CR I makes the Gallic Warriors suddenly more attractive), though that might be excessive. You could also have it retain the 2x building speed with Stone, as a nice if perhaps mostly trivial boost.

I think that would retain and even expand on the Celts' "barbarian" flavour while making them a bit more competitive.

A dun can't be more of a barracks. A wall is for defensive purpose and guerilla promotion as well.
It's fits the promotion very well where Celts love to found cities on hills.

 

[lindsay40k]

When you Oracle Feudalism with Brennus, it enables Guerilla III Longbowmen. Which can be pretty damn scary.

 

[karadoc]

Question, though, Karadoc. +2 XP for melee units would certainly be an improvement, but would it make the Dun worth building? To me, half of the reason why the Dun's awful is because it's on a building no one wants to get anyway. So unless you're planning some changes in the next version of K-Mod to make Walls more viable, I'm not sure if it'd be too much of an improvement.

Stables cost more than walls, and they don't get a production bonus from stone - and yet they are often worth building. -- In my mind, +2 xp for melee is more valuable than +2 xp for mounted up until gunpowder... so I reckon people would build them. (Besides, walls are occasionally useful just for their defence.)

When you Oracle Feudalism with Brennus, it enables Guerilla III Longbowmen. Which can be pretty damn scary.

Getting Feudalism from the Oracle with anyone is pretty damn scary..

 

[Angst]

I never build Walls. It's almost always a better investment to train units and/or a Theater.

You'd want to be offensive always, even when in defensive. Allowing the enemy Catapults to tear down your walls and kill your stack is a bad idea.

Of course, occasionally they can be useful. But it is very occasionally. That's why I generally dislike the Dun as a UB; the bonus is narrow and isn't combatible enough with a proper strategy.

Everything else about the Celts rocks to me, though. Leaders, UU, starting techs.

That's just my personal view. I only play Monarch of course... On a good day... and not in K-mod.

 

[mattio]

Sorry, I don't know anything about the game mechanics of it, I thought you were asking about the real-world implications. GL.

 

[karadoc]

Sorry, I don't know anything about the game mechanics of it, I thought you were asking about the real-world implications. GL.

I was asking about the real-world implications, and I appreciate the thoughts you posted on it earlier.

Ultimately the reason for asking is that I want to adjust the game mechanics to increase the usefulness of Duns in such a way that the new mechanics are at least as historically plausible as the old..

I agree with what you were saying about the game mechanics of hills and of the guerrilla promotion basically just being simplified approximations to represent something much more complex.

By the sounds of things, the guerrilla promotion is a good match for the Celts from that point of view - but there are a couple of issues with this particular representation of guerrilla Celts which make me wonder if it is really a good fit in the game; mostly that the promotion does not apply to melee units, and the guerrilla promotion on the Celtic UU could be seen as already covering the guerrilla flavour anyway.

..

Spoiler :

In my current test-version of K-Mod I've kept the Dun's guerrilla promotion and just given it an additional +1xp for melee units. The +1 xp is more significant than it sounds, because since both Celtic leaders are Charismatic the +1xp allows them to get 2 promotions on their new melee units instead of just 1.
-- I'm still a bit tempted to scrap the free guerrilla promotion; but in general I prefer to keep things roughly unchanged, and so the natural position is to keep the promotion.

 

[jarhead_leif]

@karadoc
.,why not make it cheaper and more defensive than the typical wall so it can be worth the investment..

 

[Angst]

I was asking about the real-world implications, and I appreciate the thoughts you posted on it earlier.

Ultimately the reason for asking is that I want to adjust the game mechanics to increase the usefulness of Duns in such a way that the new mechanics are at least as historically plausible as the old..

I agree with what you were saying about the game mechanics of hills and of the guerrilla promotion basically just being simplified approximations to represent something much more complex.

By the sounds of things, the guerrilla promotion is a good match for the Celts from that point of view - but there are a couple of issues with this particular representation of guerrilla Celts which make me wonder if it is really a good fit in the game; mostly that the promotion does not apply to melee units, and the guerrilla promotion on the Celtic UU could be seen as already covering the guerrilla flavour anyway.

..

Spoiler :

In my current test-version of K-Mod I've kept the Dun's guerrilla promotion and just given it an additional +1xp for melee units. The +1 xp is more significant than it sounds, because since both Celtic leaders are Charismatic the +1xp allows them to get 2 promotions on their new melee units instead of just 1.
-- I'm still a bit tempted to scrap the free guerrilla promotion; but in general I prefer to keep things roughly unchanged, and so the natural position is to keep the promotion.

This sounds really powerful. If you do this, you should up the cost a bit, but then it might just actually work.

 

[Sueff]

This sounds really powerful. If you do this, you should up the cost a bit, but then it might just actually work.

I don't know if getting guerilla 3 promoted grenadiers out of the box without having a settled GG, Theocracy or Vassalage might be a bit overpowered. These grenadiers can wipe the map till infantry/machineguns arrive, so getting them in every city without having a specific civic might be too much.
But maybe the beelining of military science with celts is only a favorite of mine.

 

[karadoc]

Grenadiers aren't melee units; so they won't get the +1xp.

 

[lindsay40k]

Not without a fat warchest to upgrade them from Macemen, they won't...

 

[Anaerin]

I was asking about the real-world implications, and I appreciate the thoughts you posted on it earlier.

Ultimately the reason for asking is that I want to adjust the game mechanics to increase the usefulness of Duns in such a way that the new mechanics are at least as historically plausible as the old..

I agree with what you were saying about the game mechanics of hills and of the guerrilla promotion basically just being simplified approximations to represent something much more complex.

By the sounds of things, the guerrilla promotion is a good match for the Celts from that point of view - but there are a couple of issues with this particular representation of guerrilla Celts which make me wonder if it is really a good fit in the game; mostly that the promotion does not apply to melee units, and the guerrilla promotion on the Celtic UU could be seen as already covering the guerrilla flavour anyway.

Interesting thread...

The programmers have mistaken the Dun for walls... mainly because only fragments of the Dun ruins may appear to be walls.

A Dun (Celtic) is similar to a Broch (Pictish) and sometimes used as another word for a Broch (as in place names such as Dundee). Duns / Brochs are ancient circular Hill Forts, not walls.

A Dun was built on a hill, whether the hill was natural or man made. It had circular walls at the top of the hill, but mainly consisted of a central circular building.

A Broch is similar, but differs in that its height is not reliant upon a hill. It is a huge circular tower, like an ancient castle tower, and built at the centre of a village etc. It is much taller than a Dun. It can act as the main barracks. A Broch is surrounded by smaller roundhouses. It has its own walls, but also walls around the complex.

I was asking myself the same question about the Duns and promotions. The promotion should be part of the culture rather than walls. The Picts were the ones in the Highlands (not Celts). They were masters of guerilla warfare, not because they lived in rocky terrain, but because they understood and used the land around them, bogs, forrests, creatures etc. Its a cultural Druid thing that belonged to Celts, Gaels and Picts.

In a mod I am creating, I had the Dun replace the Barracks, rather than walls... Then it can give promotions as it acts as a barracks were training could be given... However, guerilla promotions specifically would make more sense to be cultural, as being trained from birth, understanding the land is not dependant upon a barracks.

 

[calibur]

Interesting thread...

The programmers have mistaken the Dun for walls... mainly because only fragments of the Dun ruins may appear to be walls.

A Dun (Celtic) is similar to a Broch (Pictish) and sometimes used as another word for a Broch (as in place names such as Dundee). Duns / Brochs are ancient circular Hill Forts, not walls.

A Dun was built on a hill, whether the hill was natural or man made. It had circular walls at the top of the hill, but mainly consisted of a central circular building.

A Broch is similar, but differs in that its height is not reliant upon a hill. It is a huge circular tower, like an ancient castle tower, and built at the centre of a village etc. It is much taller than a Dun. It can act as the main barracks. A Broch is surrounded by smaller roundhouses. It has its own walls, but also walls around the complex.

I was asking myself the same question about the Duns and promotions. The promotion should be part of the culture rather than walls. The Picts were the ones in the Highlands (not Celts). They were masters of guerilla warfare, not because they lived in rocky terrain, but because they understood and used the land around them, bogs, forrests, creatures etc. Its a cultural Druid thing that belonged to Celts, Gaels and Picts.

In a mod I am creating, I had the Dun replace the Barracks, rather than walls... Then it can give promotions as it acts as a barracks were training could be given... However, guerilla promotions specifically would make more sense to be cultural, as being trained from birth, understanding the land is not dependant upon a barracks.

Celt is an umbrella term occasionally used to describe even the Indian and Persian whites, so... Leave out the knowledge that nobody who is not a professional historian orsomeone with direct lineage to such things would know.
Even "walls" is a pretty vaguely used term. Sprawling metropolises did not have walls per se, but series of defenses in many forms. Not always true, of course.
Also, how would you possibly implement guerilla as a cultural feature as opposed to a building? Just add it to the leader? How would this balance with other civs? What would the new UB be?

 

[mattio]

Actually that +1 xp isn't bad even without the Guerrilla promotion, quick and clean and still effective. I also don't mind the idea of changing the building to Barracks, good info from Anaerin, how would it compare to the Zulu's?

 

[AdamCrock]

"Why do Duns give the guerrilla promotion?"

The soldiers practice their climbing and mountaineering skills on walls ?

 

[Anaerin]

Celt is an umbrella term occasionally used to describe even the Indian and Persian whites, so... Leave out the knowledge that nobody who is not a professional historian orsomeone with direct lineage to such things would know.

That was a wee bit harsh, rude and uncalled for... why the attack??

I use the word Celts with regards to a historical cultural context (as in this game), not in a modern day racial context... not sure why you made it racial...

I am neither a professional historian, nor was I ever taught this things despite my genetic lineage (these things were not taught when I was in school)... I just have an interest in ancient history and culture.

I was merely sharing some info that some may not be aware of in respect to the subject of this thread; in order to possible explain why the designers of the game had chosen to make a Dun replace walls as a UB and then add guerrilla upgrades.

Also, how would you possibly implement guerilla as a cultural feature as opposed to a building? Just add it to the leader? How would this balance with other civs? What would the new UB be?

But to answer your questions. If we are talking about modding, there are a couple of options... I creatied a new Leader trait, such as Guerrilla (apt for the Picts), which just gives the guerrilla promotion to certain units, and is in line with a cultural historic context allowing them to move through trees and hills at double speed whilst defending them well.

As my post was pointing at, a new UB would be to move Dun to replace barracks, or call it Broch or whatever... then you can still use walls like every other culture in the world.

I don't think that unbalances anything in the game. But just my perception.

"Why do Duns give the guerrilla promotion?"

The soldiers practice their climbing and mountaineering skills on walls ?

Ahh, you solved it!!

 

[calibur]

Sorry if I came off rude, I was just saying that celt is usually an umbrella term that includes pictish, so it's unnecessary to relate them into it. And, fair solution, but all three of their four bonuses involving guerrilla is a bit excessive

 

[AdamCrock]

Sorry if I came off rude, I was just saying that celt is usually an umbrella term that includes pictish, so it's unnecessary to relate them into it. And, fair solution, but all three of their four bonuses involving guerrilla is a bit excessive

Do not ever be "sorry" it is a bad trait for a leader

In other "news" :

" an umbrella term " -> why not ?
"guerrilla" is very awsome if You can pull out a fort in so called choke-point (on a hill obviously) , useless otherwise Try it with gunpowdered based units and You wont be disapointed ! ^^

My opinion again - I am bad You are good "rule" apllies

 

[Angst]

Guerilla is actually brilliant for offensive warfare. Better than Woodsman - hills never disappear. It's just not particularly well-placed on Archers.

 

[damerell]

Guerilla is actually brilliant for offensive warfare. Better than Woodsman - hills never disappear. It's just not particularly well-placed on Archers.

Not sure I get it. Sure, better than Woodsman; but unless I just plan to hang out in enemy territory and annoy them, I'm going to want to attack them at some point. Even if I plan to pillage them to death, I'm not going to end every turn on a hill.