why do I stink at civ3?

[robbus]

I have read therules; I enrolled in the war academy, I just don't seem to improve.

Here are some questions:

How many workers per citizen do you need?

I tend to have a big obsolete army. Is there any rule of thumb regarding destroying older units or is it better to wait and upgrade them?

Should you destroy captured cities or occupy them?

I never seem to have enough embassies (they are expensive!). And my diplomats can never entice other civs into military alliance.

I put a priority on culture. Should I go more military?

I know a lot of these answers will be :"it depends" but maybe some of you experts can help.

I bought vanilla civ3 for $10. Fantastic educational/entertainment value!

 

[Spoonwood]

At least 2 native workers per city. It probably works better to upgrade. I'd capture rather than raze. If you want a military victory, go more military. Please post a save. You don't need to defend every city. Only border ones that might get attacked.

 

[vmxa]

"robbus"

"I have read therules; I enrolled in the war academy, I just don't seem to improve."

If you are not improving, are you trying things differently in subsequent games?

"How many workers per citizen do you need?"

Strive to have enough workers to improve tiles as they are being worked by citizen. The first dozen towns especially. How many will be impacted by the traits and the land. AG, Ind and bonus food tiles.

If you take a spin using F1 and the city view shows production on a tile, but it has no road or is not either mined or irrigated, you may need more workers. I say may as it could just be not using your working in a fashion to reduce waste of movement.

Read Crackers Opening move to understand priorities for worker task.

"I tend to have a big obsolete army. Is there any rule of thumb regarding destroying older units or is it better to wait and upgrade them?"

An age old debate to be sure. It is usually better to use gold and upgrade than to use production (shields). The problem comes in for some of the upgrades as they are costly (horse to knight).

My point would be that, if you had a large army, why did you not use it? If you did not use it, why did you build it.

I would suggest you upgrade some units and disban others. I am presuming that you are not a warmonger and are not in Monarchy. So try to have only the units you need.

One rule could be to not upgrade regular units, only vets.

"Should you destroy captured cities or occupy them?"

I think we see this question rage on for weeks at least once a year and is still not resolved. In the main, it is better to capture. Saves you an expensive settler (in terms of pop).

Other factors are its location, the owners culture and strength.

"I never seem to have enough embassies (they are expensive!). And my diplomats can never entice other civs into military alliance."

Two different things in my mind. Embassies are not required, but have uses. You do not need one with everyone right away or even ever. Try for the stronger civs as they figure to be around longer and probably better trading partners.

Skip isolated ones and ones that are next door as you will have to eliminate neighbors at some point.

Alliances are also not required. If you are not able to get any, I would wonder, if you are offering gpt with a bad rep.

"I put a priority on culture. Should I go more military?"

No need to ask me as I put zero priority on culture. It has no value as far as I can see, unless that is you VC.

 

[Elite]

I have read therules; I enrolled in the war academy, I just don't seem to improve.

Here are some questions:

How many workers per citizen do you need?

I tend to have a big obsolete army. Is there any rule of thumb regarding destroying older units or is it better to wait and upgrade them?

Should you destroy captured cities or occupy them?

I never seem to have enough embassies (they are expensive!). And my diplomats can never entice other civs into military alliance.

I put a priority on culture. Should I go more military?

I know a lot of these answers will be :"it depends" but maybe some of you experts can help.

I bought vanilla civ3 for $10. Fantastic educational/entertainment value!

Run Politics your way, but don't be stupid with them a great leader needs a mixture of all sorts of things, Compassion, Charisma, strength are but a few, if you have someone knocking on your doorstep that outnumbers with AND are caught up to you with technology.

Back down and give them what they want, wait in the shadows and get your revenge

For worker's? it depends on what you need done, I usually build a good 5 worker's for a small(8 city) Nation, their usually enough to build road's, fortress's, Railroad's and other things like that.

big obsolete army: either upgrade them, disband them or use them as Guardsmen(guarding your cities so your stronger units can move out on the offensive) what good will an axe do you against a musket?

Cities: what are your goal's? absolute destruction of the enemy? or conquest? my goal is always about conquest, so I try my hardest to NOT raze a city.

but if absolute destruction raze, raze and raze, but don't forget, this usually makes EVERYONE hate you.


Embassy's: only establish one if you plan on not going to war with that target, otherwise it's a waste.


Culture: think of it this way, if you focus too much on culture your beady eyed neighbors may get jealous and attempt to take what belongs to you, if you have low/no military this calls out to them, bringing them out like a plague upon your lands.

If you can balance Culture and Military, good, real good, the larger your military is, the more your neighbors will appease you(or try to) unless their just stupid.



me for instance, Rome threatened me(I was Germany) at the time, they outnumbered me with Medieval infantry(which I also had, but in lesser number's) they demanded 300 gold, which because they had me at a 5-1 disadvantage, I accepted, but when I got gunpowder, and cannon's I steamrolled over them, took my money back, and captured a couple of their cities.

I also(before this invasion I speak of) built lots of barracks buildings, so I had veteran's against their regular's, so not only was my militarization bringing my number's up but it also brought out better trained troops.

 

[Raliuven]

I would suggest reading some of the training day games - this will put some of the theories into practice. This is my personal favorite: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=81351

Post a save. We love to tear games apart and give tips and pointers - but if you do this you need to remember not to take anything personal. We are responding because we love the game and we want to help. Its not an attack.

Start a game in the Succession Games and state that you are 'in training'. That way you can see how other players arrange the game and how it progresses and participate in the discussions & game play, etc.

 

[Spoonwood]

it depends on what you need done, I usually build a good 5 worker's for a small(8 city) Nation, their usually enough to build road's, fortress's, Railroad's and other things like that.

8 cities and 5/6 workers? You almost surely end up working a lot of tiles that way which don't have roads, mines, or irrigation on them. This slows down your production and commerce output. VMXA puts things well when he writes

Strive to have enough workers to improve tiles as they are being worked by citizen. The first dozen towns especially. How many will be impacted by the traits and the land. AG, Ind and bonus food tiles.

 

[Elite]

8 cities and 5/6 workers? You almost surely end up working a lot of tiles that way which don't have roads, mines, or irrigation on them. This slows down your production and commerce output. VMXA puts things well when he writes

I don't irrigate much if anything, and I only build necessary roads/fortifications, I don't go insane with road/fortress/irrigation like the AI do, I build a straight line of roads to and from each city, and amazingly I do quite well(if I lose a city due to rebellion or enemy takeover, I quickly reestablish rule) I normally earn 15+ gold a turn, I would earn more but my military is always as large as possible.


Actually, I don't even build THAT many worker's, that's to many to me, lol I usually only use 3-4, even wen my Empire expands across the globe.

 

[vmxa]

I can assure you, you would be doing even better with more workers. So a city with a single road in and a single road out, would have about 7 tiles being worked with no road. That is a lot of gold lost and add all the other towns with tiles lacking a road.

As you get to more corruption, gold is no longer going to be a factor as it is lost to corruption. You still have access and movement considerations.

This is ignoring food from any irrigation you are missing and shields. You are left with a massive handicap. Not sure why you would want to carry that load, but so be it.

Lack of workers and poor use of the workers one has is probably the biggest problem I see on the board.

 

[Spoonwood]

I don't irrigate much if anything, and I only build necessary roads/fortifications, I don't go insane with road/fortress/irrigation like the AI do, I build a straight line of roads to and from each city, and amazingly I do quite well(if I lose a city due to rebellion or enemy takeover, I quickly reestablish rule) I normally earn 15+ gold a turn, I would earn more but my military is always as large as possible.


Actually, I don't even build THAT many worker's, that's to many to me, lol I usually only use 3-4, even wen my Empire expands across the globe.

It might prove interesting to see one of your saves, since you do "quite well", which I think you use quite differently than I would.

 

[robbus]

http://www.mediafire.com/?kss90l8wpu5blv3

here is a link to the game i am currently playing. Multiple saves over time.

I am playing ci3 ptw.

read the posts with great interest. Thanks for all the help!

 

[vmxa]

robbus, the short answer to the thread question of why do I stink is the same as it is for everyone in your boat. Here is some feedback on your save FWIIW. Mainly too many structures that are not paying off, too late to realize you have to get land form someone else sooner.

Looking at the 1720AD save. First thing that jumps out is you have only discovered about 1/3 of the map. Next I look at preference as I want to have color blind enable to see the names. I see that you are not using wait at end of turn. I think that is a must for any serious player.

I would suggest enable of ask for builds after completion. You really want to make sure what is needed is what is being made.

Always build last is useful as it often will save you time. I do not use the queue function. Just another way to lose control. If one does not like a bit of micromanaging, I would say TBS games are not the way to go.

Animations are up to you, but no real need for any other than battle in a personal game. It just slows the game and I think I have seen enough troops moving around.

You only can see Spain and German lands and the borders of another. Two others are completely in the dark.

I do not recall the last time I played the Greeks, probably years now. I thought Athens was the capitol, you have Corinth. So lets start there. You are building a cath, why? It is size 7 and not growing and has 4 happy faces. This means it has no need of more happy structures at this point.

You will only dump shields into a structure that you do not need and pay maint on it. It has a uni, but makes only 6 beakers. I suspect that is more a function of the size and the slider at 20%. You are running at 20 as you are going broke.

Why not switch to a harbor to get more food and grow some? Why is this the cap, while size 12 Athens is no longer the capitol? You are making Copes and had Athen stayed the capitol, it would have zero corruption and get back that shield.

Hit F7 and see you are making Magel in a size 6 town and still have 58 turns left. This is pretty much a waste of time, even at Regent. You either have to do it seriously or not do it. I mean A) use a pre B) use your best beach town C) buff that town. Buff in this case means get it larger and get it some mines. You have 1 mine for the town.

Why is it size 6 still anyway? You are on an island. That means maximizing your holding is critical. You want to pack the land with few or no dead tiles. You want to get towns to city size (well that is true in all maps).

Theveste is what I see in so many games posted. It is not growing, but has an aqua? Why is it not growing? It has two tiles being worked that have only 1 food. Why is it working an irrigated desert tile and you have a plains tile not even with a road? It is a nearly uncorrupted town, get it larger. Use a harbor.

Do not build cath at Regent, well at any level really. They are best used in you best towns, if at all and only when that CITY is able to pop it out quickly and has nothing better to do and needs the happy. These conditions should not be met at Regent. (Please no one mention 20K or 100K, I have no interest in them and they are not
germain)

You should have known fairly soon that you were on an island. That means you need to have no wide spaced towns and if you have tundra or desert ICS that area. It means all tiles are important and must be maximied. Here you have 4 tiles with nothing on them and maybe worse one with irrigation and no road. It is a desert tile. That
meant wasting worker turns.

Not evn going through the towns, just looking from the over head view of the empire. We see Market going up in Pharsalos and it is size 5 not growning. You only have 2 lux, so I am dubious about that. It may be ok, but probably not the best move right now.

Cath going up in Herakleia and it is size 3 and not growing, not that is crazy and it should not even have a temple to allow a cath build.

I see two places making a Hop. They are not useful at this point.
I see you have a leader and this is PTW, so why not rush Magel? I am presuming Copes is safe at 4 turns to go, I do not know. Speaking of Magel, why do you have Navigation in the first place? Was it a trade? I would not trade any required tech for an optional, if you did.

Likely you researched it as the AI is not anxious to trade a wonder tech.

Colosseum going up in Leptis Minor a thriving metro no doubt. Oh wait, it is size 3 and not growing, yeah it could benefit from a very expensive structure. DO NOT build colosseums in normal games at any level. It is one thing to drop one in a metro, when it is a snap to erect and the maint is noting, but even then you do not normally need it. Well I do not need a metro in the first place.

Leptis Magna is making a knight, but still needs 67 turns. A net 1 shield town is best turned to wealth, in C3C it could be a farm maybe. Here it is a desert. What I would do there is shoot myself, no wait. I mean sell all those buildings in this massive size 3 not growing empire and rush a settler. Move the settler to the desert tile that has no road and plant a town.

Both desert towns would have their lone pop set to tax and be forgotten. Tax is better than scientist in PTW as the times you drop research you get the gold. The times you research 1 gold is equal to the one beaker. Just wondering why it had a wall? That location suggests no one else was around to attack it or if there was, they
would be nearly done.

Rusicade. 101 of islands. Do not build libs on them, even though you get a discount. You will get no beakers from it. If you must have culture, use a temple as they give a happy face. I would suggest you build neither on a two town island. Pop out a couple of workers, mow the jungle and road and irrigate. Farm time.

Halicarnassus, more of the same crap. It is making a uni, come on.

Research: Banking is not a good choice here. You should forget about Smiths. You should not be making banks anyway and hence have no need for Smiths. What you do need is cavs and frigates. That is the techs you should have been going after first.

PP why did you research this one? You don not need to trade communication at this point. What you need is more land and you are a Monarchy. So get an army and takes some land. Again, if you traded for it that was only helping them as you most surely gave up a required tech and eased them getting to the next age.

Boats: I prefer to only make boats to find the AI early. Then disband them, if they survive. Wait till I get close to Mag to make more and do it in ernest at that point. Why pay shields and maint for boats to sit for hundreds of years and do nothing?

Trade: you can trade off Nav, if you can get enough to justify it as you are either going to rush the wonder or abandon making it. Do not trade Invention to Germany as they are your logical target.

Leader:
I am too tired to think about this, but it may be worth it to make an army and forget Magel. The extra movement is not a big deal you have little distance to cover and there is no hurry in the travel time. The army can let you win a battle and then make HE. That can be very useful. I think I would go that route.

War: what is good for, winning the game. Eventually stack a bunch of those semi worthless hops on the tiles to block any access into the German lands upon landing. You should bring a settler and drop it next to the fish, after razing Hamburg. Now you block access and have some workers.

Roll over Bismark and pop out settlers from Berlin to fill the land CxxC going to the forest by the first hill from Hamburg. Drop another on the deer. CxxC from each and hold Leipzig. Abandoning Berlin along the way.

Get a boat out to find the world or gets some maps. Look for the next weak sister and rape them. Save Spain for last. Not sure, if they have Conq in PTW or not. If they do take care as they ignore movement penalties.

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

Gotta just trust that there is a long slow learning curve to this game and that it is worth it. Don't build anything unless you know its purpose and can determine a need for it. Good luck (important) and hang in there. The punishment you take now makes the kicking butt you do later all the more enjoyable.

 

[robbus]

thanks vmxa for the very valuable insights, not to mention the time taken to assess the game. I will print your reply and go over every detail.

As an overview, the game was fun until I wiped out carthage. I then was sort of marooned and building improvements. staying ahead scorewise but not fighting. let's face it fighting is the fun part! Thanks again

 

[vmxa]

Having fun is really the whole point. Good luck.

 

[Ataxerxes]

thanks vmxa for the very valuable insights, not to mention the time taken to assess the game. I will print your reply and go over every detail.

As an overview, the game was fun until I wiped out carthage. I then was sort of marooned and building improvements. staying ahead scorewise but not fighting. let's face it fighting is the fun part! Thanks again

Much more than CivIV, III is a war game. War is fun and one of the safest ways to win. The game is easier when you are larger and more powerful than anyone else.

I can't remember building an embassy. It's largely a waste of gold. Admittedly I go for Republic so I avoid Right of Passage agreements.

Anytime I can create an army I do it. An army is usually more important than another wonder. Armies are one of the things in the game that really favor the player. They make war so much easier and fun.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . .I can't remember building an embassy. It's largely a waste of gold. . . .

Respectfully disagreed. Building an embassy lets you peek at what resources the civ has hooked up, and may be a prerequisite for spying later. (I'm not sure about that, as I rarely use espionage.)

. . . . great leader needs a mixture of all sorts of things, Compassion, Charisma, strength . . . . Guardsmen . . .

Are you sure you're talking about Civ 3?

 

[Spoonwood]

Embassies improve relations with the AIs. RoPs can prove helpful in getting to the current opponent in some situations, and also improve relations with the AIs. I think you can also guess more accurately as to who the AIs might trade resources/luxuries to with embassies, via the blue lines in the trade advisor screen, which you can't see without embassies. This also enable you to scout an AI's capital. Possibly even more importantly in many games, you can't sign military alliances without an embassy. Wars generally go easier when you have military alliances than if you try and take on an AI by yourself.

That said careful consideration of whether to build an embassy or not is by no means a bad idea, so even though I think I largely disagree with Ataxerxes on this point, he's brought up a good issue at the very least.

 

[MarkK]

With all the excellent advice considered, you simply must have an Attitude from day 1 that you will rule the world. "How" is the hard part, and takes a lot of work. No one can really give you any further advice until you adopt this "survive by taking" Strategy. But once you do, they're a lot of battles to be won, and a lot of hard-fought-for territory to be taken.

 

[MarkK]

Or to sum it up..I'm Brutal but nice

 

[robbus]

RoP agreements in my experience allow AI civs to get close without me threatening them. I generally avoid them.

I think I may be too pacifist for my own good!

Let's face it a military victory is more satisfying than a space race or UN victory. In real life I think opposite is true!