Why do only I lose due to tourism?

[Gort]

Game's really not that hard. Stick it on Settler difficulty and move it up one difficulty each time you win.

 

[Aedn]

Game's really not that hard. Stick it on Settler difficulty and move it up one difficulty each time you win.

Thats not really that true, the culture changes are fine, but the lack of information provided on how they work is not. Firaxis did a really bad job with documentation and explaining the changes, so that people understand them when starting BNW.

instead you have to do multiple searches on the web or come here and try to browse through massive numbers of threads to find out what you need, most of it being spread out amongst a slew of various forum threads.

 

[SilverDash]

I agree with Aedn. I have hardly any idea of how it works even after several attempts. In G&K I could do a cultural victory on Immortal easily. But on BNW I seem to lose every single time and the worst part is that I often do not know why. I have a 'great' empire with decent cities and lots of wonders and digsites and I have more tourism (once even more than all other civs together) and I think that I have more culture as well but yet I seem to lose. On top of that the game is usually decided by total domination long before a cultural victory is achieved. And the AI who sometimes has like +80 happiness w/o resources or anything is really hard to knock down to -30.
Maybe I'm slow but my tourism usually boosts from 50-100 into the hundreds after turn 280-320 or something. Before that you haven't researched/built the broadcast towers/lategame wonders etc. But near those turns nukes and stealth bombers start flying. Who cares about culture if your digsites are being nuked.

And I don't know who complains about 'peaceful' victories because I get attacked quiet often just at random. They are friendly (research agreements, lux trading, many friendship declarations etc.) and all of a sudden I see enemies at my border and 1-2 turns later they attack. I can withstand most attacks but it still slows me down regarding tech & city grow unless I can pay them or their neighbor to attack each other. But lategame they do not want to trade anymore (all AI vs the player it seems especially if my score is high).

Their official documentation doesn't list anything regarding cultural victory. And early domination is screwed so hard... Plus if they declare war on me and I take out one of their cities because I'm so tired of them attacking me all game long then all the world hates me and declares war/denounces me.... Also I can't build huge empires because of the huge penalties. I always liked to do that.

It's really frustrating.

 

[Giskler]

You need to step down in difficulty and spend your time in a couple games to learn all the new systems. If you think you can just jump right back in where you left off and still win without learning the new game rules then you deserve to lose.

Step down to prince and spend an entire game playing around with all the new stuff then step back up and try again. All the new systems are easily explained via the in game screens and don't need extensive documentation.

 

[Vidszhite]

You need to step down in difficulty and spend your time in a couple games to learn all the new systems. If you think you can just jump right back in where you left off and still win without learning the new game rules then you deserve to lose.

Step down to prince and spend an entire game playing around with all the new stuff then step back up and try again. All the new systems are easily explained via the in game screens and don't need extensive documentation.

Have to agree. My first game back, I turned the diff down a level and played around with the new systems, with the intent of a culture victory. Even though it was on emperor, I found it very intuitive and even managed to flip an enemy city via ideology pressure. It helps to be on lower diff than you're used to from G&K, because learning the mechanics is so much more fun when you're winning. Even now, I have major trouble on my usual Immortal, not because of culture, but because of trade. If I was trying to learn BNW at this level, I would be sunk too.

Also, I highly recommend trying Arabia when learning about trade. Their 2x range caravans are insanely good in the early game. Trade is SO important now that there's no river/sea gold, and for that reason, they are the first civ I won culture victory with.

 

[slowcar]

I learned a lot by watching MadDjinns videos, so i did not come unprepared.
The game does not do a very good job at explaining the new features, but you have quite a large civiliopedia to read stuff in, and you can just try things out.

"Ignoring one of the new key features of the expansion can get you in trouble" would be a more appropriate thread title.

 

[Teholb]

You need to build a strong national identity (fortify culture). Culture is the counter/defense to Tourism. However, culture is also a modifier for how effective your tourism is.

Basically, if you don't care about a culture victory, you still have to have a strong culture- that's the bottom line. But you don't have to put a single ounce of effort into Tourism if you don't want to.

 

[Martinus]

Basically, if you don't care about a culture victory, you still have to have a strong culture- that's the bottom line. But you don't have to put a single ounce of effort into Tourism if you don't want to.

That's not entirely true. Culture is what is used to prevent other players from winning with Tourism (and Tourism will not help you here), yes, but your own Tourism also helps against unhappiness due to different ideologies.

 

[Teholb]

That's not entirely true. Culture is what is used to prevent other players from winning with Tourism (and Tourism will not help you here), yes, but your own Tourism also helps against unhappiness due to different ideologies.

Well, sure, if you amass enough Tourism to flip other ideologies to your own, but in such a case wouldn't you be going for a Culture victory? It takes a significant amount of Tourism/culture to flip other civs in my experience. I'd rather devote those resources toward my primary victory condition or emergency response, usually.

 

[Martinus]

Well, sure, if you amass enough Tourism to flip other ideologies to your own, but in such a case wouldn't you be going for a Culture victory? It takes a significant amount of Tourism/culture to flip other civs in my experience. I'd rather devote those resources toward my primary victory condition or emergency response, usually.

No, no, that's not what I meant. Your Tourism also helps to reduce the amount of unhappiness you get when you are getting culturally influenced by a civilization with a different ideology. So it acts as a defensive tool, if only in a limited manner, too.

Therefore, even if you are not going for a cultural victory, it helps to have a bit of Tourism generated yourself not to go into a revolt (at least if the culturally dominant civs have different ideologies than you).

 

[Teholb]

No, no, that's not what I meant. Your Tourism also helps to reduce the amount of unhappiness you get when you are getting culturally influenced by a civilization with a different ideology. So it acts as a defensive tool, if only in a limited manner, too.

Therefore, even if you are not going for a cultural victory, it helps to have a bit of Tourism generated yourself not to go into a revolt (at least if the culturally dominant civs have different ideologies than you).

Wha . . .!?

Man, I could've used that bit of info in my last game! Six different cities with every possible culture building up to the Broadcast Tower (and including the Eiffel Tower, for good measure) before I was able to fend off the hordes of ravenous, err, freedom-mongers. Ahem.

 

[Falconiano]

You have basically two options when you're the one choosing first and it goes wrong.
1. You swap. Punks with mohawks robbing shops for a couple turns then it's fixed.
2. You destroy a few cities of the tourism leader. Steal his arties, raze his land a bit, runover his civilians with harleys.

In general tho, specialized cities help a lot.
I always have one making GWs, one GMs and one GAs.
And spam (steal) those Archeologists as soon as I get the chance to.

 

[Paradigne]

Throwing in my 2 cents.

Tourism is a long road that appears to be almost useless until Hotels and Airports. I'm not saying you don't need it, you need to get that good base going so when you can build the above you will actually be able to influence the foreign peoples. Once you get internet, anyone who does not follow your ideology will be in the boat you are in now.

 

[fremat02]

Made a cultural win with Brazil, I had no major impact on other civs before I reached the ~250 / 300 tourism. I had world wonders in each city, hotel and airport in each too, sixtine and hermitage in capital, almost every slot of cultural building filled.

So you realy need to be absolutely focused on culture and tourism if you want to get that CV I think. But Brazil is absolutely crazy for it.

 

[Dragonmaster83]

Culture is the biggest defense to enemy tourism with a different ideology but your own tourism does play a role as well. With a little tourism on your end, you can generally get to at least the first level (10%) and lower the influence level from different ideologies by 1. Even the 30% level isn't to hard to reach with a little tourism so its lowered by 2.

But if your completely ignoring culture/tourism, basically be prepared to switch ideologies or don't take one at all.

 

[andrewlt]

You need tourism to defend, no? It's very easy to get exotic as they only need to produce tourism equivalent to 10% of your culture. I think that's where most people slip up as they only go for culture and ignore tourism.

 

[SilverDash]

I won on prince now (using cultural victory) and I had 722 tourism (and leading with culture really hard (3 lvl 3 tennets and 3-4 policy trees or something)) vs Persia (he has only 2 cities for quiet a while and 1 is rather small...) but still he has only -16 from our Order ideologies.
On Immortal if the AI has even like 20-40 tourism they already put me in -30 (no trade routes, no open borders, no other stuff that I know of).

So... huh?

I don't understand anything and I still learned nothing. These numbers they mean nothing to me. If I have more than 10x the stats the AI have vs me on Immortal I still do half of the happiness damage? I still do not understand it. What I DO know is that it was hard to refrain from going total domination (which is a WHOLE lot faster & easier than a cultural victory). And the AI is cheating with a modifier of 1000% even on Prince? Can't be I miss something crucial...

I also don't understand what the point of "Dominant" is vs "Influential".

Another thing: if I have an army 2 era's newer and 5x bigger than his standing near his border, they still treat me like crap just because I'm a human player? They still refuse trades (or make unreasonable requests), they do not respond to tiny demands, denounce me for no reason, they still spy on me and get caught all the time, etc. But when I take over 1-2 cities they offer me a whole list of lux, cities, gold, etc.... So stupid...


P.S.
OMG I found El Dorado on turn 5... +500 gold! This is like a free settler... The 2nd ruin nearby increased my pop by 1 so on turn 7 I was ready to expand...

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I won on prince now (using cultural victory) and I had 722 tourism (and leading with culture really hard (3 lvl 3 tennets and 3-4 policy trees or something)) vs Persia (he has only 2 cities for quiet a while and 1 is rather small...) but still he has only -16 from our Order ideologies.
On Immortal if the AI has even like 20-40 tourism they already put me in -30 (no trade routes, no open borders, no other stuff that I know of).

So... huh?

I don't understand anything and I still learned nothing. These numbers they mean nothing to me. If I have more than 10x the stats the AI have vs me on Immortal I still do half of the happiness damage? I still do not understand it. What I DO know is that it was hard to refrain from going total domination (which is a WHOLE lot faster & easier than a cultural victory). And the AI is cheating with a modifier of 1000% even on Prince? Can't be I miss something crucial...

I also don't understand what the point of "Dominant" is vs "Influential".

Another thing: if I have an army 2 era's newer and 5x bigger than his standing near his border, they still treat me like crap just because I'm a human player? They still refuse trades (or make unreasonable requests), they do not respond to tiny demands, denounce me for no reason, they still spy on me and get caught all the time, etc. But when I take over 1-2 cities they offer me a whole list of lux, cities, gold, etc.... So stupid...


P.S.
OMG I found El Dorado on turn 5... +500 gold! This is like a free settler... The 2nd ruin nearby increased my pop by 1 so on turn 7 I was ready to expand...

It is not Tourism that causes unhappiness
it is Influence (tourism v. culture)
Unknown: attacking tourism <10% defending culture
Exotic: attacking tourism >=10% defending culture
Familiar: attacking tourism >=30% defending culture
Popular: attacking tourism >=50% defending culture
Influential: attacking tourism >=100% defending culture
Dominant: attacking tourism >=200% defending culture

Each "level" provides 1 point of pressure against the other civ or blocks 1 point of pressure against the other civ.

The levels add up from different civs, and the total unhappiness also depends on how big your empire is.

 

[SilverDash]

Aahhh... So it takes a lot of time because usually the AI on deity has a whole lot of culture and therefor are near impossible to beat with a PEACEFUL cultural victory. I can imagine that they have like 800-1200 culture/turn and I need to top that with tourism. So if they amassed 20k culture then I need 20k tourism to gain influential on them. But if their culture is insanely high then a peaceful cultural victory is impossible because tourism/culture largely depend on your empire size.

So on deity with 5 cities vs some runaway AI that have 20 cities is not possible to beat through a peaceful cultural victory? Unless of course you top them in science and get the hotels/towers/tourism wonders all up before they can amass any serious culture. But after that domination is a must then?

 

[Dragonmaster83]

Aahhh... So it takes a lot of time because usually the AI on deity has a whole lot of culture and therefor are near impossible to beat with a PEACEFUL cultural victory. I can imagine that they have like 800-1200 culture/turn and I need to top that with tourism. So if they amassed 20k culture then I need 20k tourism to gain influential on them. But if their culture is insanely high then a peaceful cultural victory is impossible because tourism/culture largely depend on your empire size.

So on deity with 5 cities vs some runaway AI that have 20 cities is not possible to beat through a peaceful cultural victory? Unless of course you top them in science and get the hotels/towers/tourism wonders all up before they can amass any serious culture. But after that domination is a must then?

Actually you wont technically need 1200 TpT (tourism per turn) to beat a 1200 CpT. Remember that tourism gets modifiers to each civ (open boarders, trade routes for example). Also you can bomb musicians for a one time tourism boost against civs.