Why I have stopped founding religions altogether

[GhostSalsa]

But as always I've had a deity game where a religion stayed unfounded until the 1600s and I've had games where every religion except mine was enhanced by turn 80.

Yes, I really hate this aspect of instability with the new BNW AI love for religion. In G&K you could count on converting most of your continent if, for example, you had a desert start - now in BNW you can try but you expect everything you convert to be flipped in Renaissance anyway. So you under-invest, and then there's those random games when it turns out you could have ran away unchecked. [CiV is updating but otherwise I would screenshot my Aztec game last week where I've got Sacred Path pantheon running strong in all six of my jungle cities still and it's turn 215, no one on my continent founded and no one has come to convert]

There's no consistency! I always found if I'm on faith pantheon terrain but never invest much in spreading. I use speed of religious adoption notices to gauge AI zealotry obviously, but so many experiences with aggressive AI converting make me error on the side of too cautious.

 

[Vitruvius]

If you have good faith per turn theres no reason you cant outspread. The ai doesnt get bonus in faith at any difficulty

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[Asklepios]

Thanks for the clarifications - much appreciated. Didn't realise how the Great Prophet costs worked - I'd just seen my own costs go up and assumed it was the GP spawning that did it, whereas in retrospect it now seems obvious it was the founding.

I'll have to give the early Missionary thing a go, though given that my usual Religion strategy is entirely based around getting +100 gp for the initial conversion then forgetting about it, I'm not too sure that I need to worry about founding outside my capital. If I can get Pagodas too thats welcome, but its the gp boosts that I aim my religion around.

Way I play it, I tend to only go for religion on high difficulty if I can get a Faith generating pantheon, and then the goal is Tithe, and Itinerant Preachers, and thats pretty much all that interests me. If the mid-game then causes me to lose all my religion, theirs is probably better than mine for the long game anyway.

I will try the no-capital thing anyway though, just to see how it effects counter-spam, and to see if it helps to have my religion founded nearer an opposing civ, and thus get the pressure down sooner.

I sometimes play a faith and piety centred culture game, going for the Any Great Person generation Reformation belief, but thats a rarity for me: too many policies to commit to that could have been in Tradition!

 

[Laurwin]

If you play continents game, and if you units fortified inside cities...

WAKE UP THOSE UNITS.

Put them on "Alert" command instead (A hotkey - sword and shild icon)

also put ships on "alert" in coastal waters, so you can get good warning before AI sends the CARPET OF DOOM of prophets.

Hiawatha did this to me, as America. I had my own perfectly adequate religion in my continent. I was going to defend my religious values like a proper American in this game

I had stone circles (faith from quarry), pagoda, religious community, itinerant preachers (I wonder though, which is the best spread mechanic for this last religious policy?)

My brave American lancer and gatling gun alerted the city governor to the threat of heresy and subversion of American people, posed by the wayward Iroquis great prophets.

After being captured, the great prophets were interrogated (I checked if the AI sends "un-used" great prophets, if they could be valuable to be used as holy site for tile yield, but they had already spread the filthy iroquis religion once before, in their own continent)

Delete

 

[JustinianIV]

If you have good faith per turn theres no reason you cant outspread. The ai doesnt get bonus in faith at any difficulty

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Surely the fact that they get bonuses in other areas will give them opportunity to have an indirect bonus in faith. Building faith wonders, and piety SPs are huge bonuses.

 

[Wodan]

I'm surprised no-one has suggested the easiest way (by far) of stopping a religion pimp from spreading with a wave of missionaries. Bribe a neighbor of the pimp into going into war with him. Or, do it yourself.

Problem solved.

 

[Pietato]

Then they're not really your friends, are they? On Deity, there's a higher level of diplo. needed. And other targets. AI doesn't prophet spam until mid game, so you have a while to build up a ton of good diplo, and to incite bad diplo between the other civs.

4 civs is a bad number for religious spread, since there is only 1 target left without religion to convert. How are you founding the 5th religion I a 4 man game? I play standard 8 civs.

Yeah, you are wrong. They will spam you with prophets and missionaries even if you are the best of friends AND they will not stop even when asked. Babylon just did it to me in my last Deity game.

Also someone said the AI gets no faith bonuses on Deity. This is very misleading. All their production, city building, culture, etc bonuses create massive faith boosts, which is how Babylon has 4 great prophets and 3 missionaries running around your territory.

 

[adwcta]

Yeah, you are wrong. They will spam you with prophets and missionaries even if you are the best of friends AND they will not stop even when asked. Babylon just did it to me in my last Deity game.

Also someone said the AI gets no faith bonuses on Deity. This is very misleading. All their production, city building, culture, etc bonuses create massive faith boosts, which is how Babylon has 4 great prophets and 3 missionaries running around your territory.

Just telling you the results. If you have a religion, and the AI can reasonably reach two civs, it will spam the one it hates more. Make it hate the other guy more.

I am not wrong. No one's saying the AI won't spam you if you are friends. You have to be better friends than his other neighbor that does not share his religion.

 

[Browd]

Thanks for the clarifications - much appreciated. Didn't realise how the Great Prophet costs worked - I'd just seen my own costs go up and assumed it was the GP spawning that did it, whereas in retrospect it now seems obvious it was the founding.

I'm not sure what clarification you are referring to, but the only thing that impacts your Great Prophet costs are your own GP spawns -- the first spawn occurs after you cross 200 faith (RNG), then 300, 500, 800, 1200, 1700, etc.. How you use your GPs (whether founding, enhancing, spreading or planting) is irrelevant.

Also irrelevant is when other civs GPs spawn and how they are used by the AI.

 

[Asklepios]

I'm not sure what clarification you are referring to, but the only thing that impacts your Great Prophet costs are your own GP spawns -- the first spawn occurs after you cross 200 faith (RNG), then 300, 500, 800, 1200, 1700, etc.. How you use your GPs (whether founding, enhancing, spreading or planting) is irrelevant.

Also irrelevant is when other civs GPs spawn and how they are used by the AI.

Yes, that was the clarification I meant.

Although is it not the case that when another civ founds a religion the threshold goes up? I am sure I recall that if I get there first it takes 200 faith, but as soon as I hear of a religion being founded I need 300 faith.

 

[Zaimejs]

Quick question... when you set your units on alert, they don't wake up for a friendly prophet, right? I don't think so.

 

[Browd]

Yes, that was the clarification I meant.

Although is it not the case that when another civ founds a religion the threshold goes up? I am sure I recall that if I get there first it takes 200 faith, but as soon as I hear of a religion being founded I need 300 faith.

Yeah, your recollection is wrong. Other civs' actions do not affect the faith cost of your Great Prophets (or other Great Persons).

 

[Asklepios]

Yeah, your recollection is wrong. Other civs' actions do not affect the faith cost of your Great Prophets (or other Great Persons).

Doh. Well that changes things somewhat! I will definitely give the early Missionary try a go.

Incidentally, what causes Religious pressure? Am I right in thinking that any city with a religion exerts the same pressure, regardless of its faith generation or number of followers?

 

[reddishrecue]

Religion helps out a lot. Building the grand temple helps you keep a religion more. Purchasing missionaries to spread to the CSs can also work out with the church property instead of tithe because you get+2 gold for each city converted. So you will get an extra gold for each cs spread. The indonesian khandi will also make you generate +2 faith per religion in a city. I have reached +100 fpt with khandies in my cities. Keeping a great prophet in your capital can prevent your religion from being destroyed. Other religions can also have helpful beliefs that you could take advantage of. You don't have to always have your religion around.

 

[Laurwin]

other times I simply buy inquisitors in all my endangered cities (like coastal, or border cities). Problem solved for eternity.

 

[Browd]

Incidentally, what causes Religious pressure? Am I right in thinking that any city with a religion exerts the same pressure, regardless of its faith generation or number of followers?

Every city with a majority religion exerts pressure for that religion on other cities in range. Minority religion followers in a city exert no pressure on surrounding cities. The amount of pressure is not affected by the size of that city (population or number of followers), the amount of faith being generated in that city, or (except for the Grand Temple) the presence of any religious buildings.

The baseline pressure exported by a city is 6 (Standard speed), which Religious Texts increases to 7.5 (pre-Printing Press) and 9 (post-Printing Press). The Grand Temple will double the pressure the Holy City exerts on cities in range. World Religion will also increase pressure by 25%. The Arabian UA provides for double pressure along trade routes.

The default pressure range is 10 tiles, but Itinerant Preachers will increase that to 13 tiles. Also, any trade route that is longer than 10 (or 13) tiles will exert pressure.

Probably left something out, but those are the key elements.

 

[Ronza149]

Yeah, you are wrong. They will spam you with prophets and missionaries even if you are the best of friends AND they will not stop even when asked. Babylon just did it to me in my last Deity game.

Also someone said the AI gets no faith bonuses on Deity. This is very misleading. All their production, city building, culture, etc bonuses create massive faith boosts, which is how Babylon has 4 great prophets and 3 missionaries running around your territory.

Correct me if I'm wrong,but I have heard more than once that,if an AI who has DoF with you converts your cities,then he/she is NOT reliable,i.e. a backstabber.You do know who likes to backstab right?In my recent few games,my good buddies Pacal and Askia spammed prophets and wandered around my realm,but NEVER converted my own cities,they only convert your CS,while Catherine the horse lover,converted some of my cities and unsurprisingly backstabbed me later.

 

[Boygor]

other times I simply buy inquisitors in all my endangered cities (like coastal, or border cities). Problem solved for eternity.

This ^ I just park Inquisitors beside my cities and the AI never ever attempts to convert them ever. This way I can focus on maintaining pressure locally so that my cities stay on-side.

 

[reddishrecue]

^inquisitors work well with missionaries that spread your religion on your city but still has the presence of an unwanted religion. Once you eliminate the religions with the inquisitor, your religion becomes majority in that city.

 

[adwcta]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but I have heard more than once that,if an AI who has DoF with you converts your cities,then he/she is NOT reliable,i.e. a backstabber.You do know who likes to backstab right?In my recent few games,my good buddies Pacal and Askia spammed prophets and wandered around my realm,but NEVER converted my own cities,they only convert your CS,while Catherine the horse lover,converted some of my cities and unsurprisingly backstabbed me later.

This is correct.

It's the difference between knowing vaguely how the AI diplo works in this game, and being a master at it. Mastering the AI diplo lets you do so many things. It's why I can know exactly when I can keep a religion, and exactly who I need to focus on to occupy and/or curry favor with; and Browd just gets spammed with Prophets to the face. They don't always backstab you later (they may be occupied with other things), but it means your diplo is dipping low.

Someone else brought up getting your religious neighbor into a war with another civ. That's a great way to get him to hate his other neighbor more than you, and thus try to spam that neighbor with his prophets instead.

There are times when it's just not a good idea to try to have a religion (if your position corners a religious civ by the water, and you're staying peaceful, for example; because they won't have other neighbors, and you won't be able to guarantee that you can bribe someone to go to war with them), or at least know that it'll take a couple of dancing inquisitors and/or a Prophet to reconvert your cities. These are all things you can identify long before your first prophet pops, usually before you even get a pantheon on Deity.