Why is battleship the strongest naval unit?

[Verge]

my comment was based more on politics than on the Navy's plans. certainly that is the goal they are aiming for. but consider the number of B2 and F22 aircraft that were planned versus how many Congress authorized the money for. now consider how many competing funding priorities the military has now that half the Army's equipment is worn out or blown up.

But the B-2 and F-22 have become operational aircraft. Hell, even the V-22 Osprey has become an operational aircraft.

I interpreted your point as saying that no F-35C variants will wind up with the Navy. Even if just one F-35C finds a parking space on a carrier deck, my point still stands: The JSF will be serving as the Navy's stealthy carrier-based aircraft in the coming years. I'll admit, if the Naval JSF complement consists of one airplane, that would be pointless, but obviously it's going to be a sizable force. Whether or not that force will eventually be the bulk of the Navy's air fleet or simply a notable minority doesn't really matter: the JSF will be the stealthiest carrier-based airplane in the fleet, and the Navy will use it to such an effect.

 

[Cutlass]

But the B-2 and F-22 have become operational aircraft. Hell, even the V-22 Osprey has become an operational aircraft.

I interpreted your point as saying that no F-35C variants will wind up with the Navy. Even if just one F-35C finds a parking space on a carrier deck, my point still stands: The JSF will be serving as the Navy's stealthy carrier-based aircraft in the coming years. I'll admit, if the Naval JSF complement consists of one airplane, that would be pointless, but obviously it's going to be a sizable force. Whether or not that force will eventually be the bulk of the Navy's air fleet or simply a notable minority doesn't really matter: the JSF will be the stealthiest carrier-based airplane in the fleet, and the Navy will use it to such an effect.

We're not quite arguing the same points here. If the Navy gets 100 of the F35, then that's 1 carrier fully loaded or 25 of each of 4 carriers. The Navy would have to buy 300 to put on squadron on each available carrier. 5 or 600 to phase out the F18 and well over 1000 to replace the F14 and the F18.

To me, looking at how procurement has gone over the past couple decades, that seems very unlikely to happen. Which means the F35s that do get purchased will be special purpose units, not general purpose units, and the 14 and 18 remain the mainstays until they're too old and worn out to fly.

To equip the AF and Marines as well will push procurement towards 3000.

There are many factors involved, but i lack confidence in it being an affordable program in those numbers.

 

[bestbrian]

No more Tomcats; F-14 already retired. F-35 will be supplementing the F-18.

 

[Verge]

Which means the F35s that do get purchased will be special purpose units, not general purpose units, and the 14 and 18 remain the mainstays until they're too old and worn out to fly.

And I agree, since I agree that procurement issues will be likely. But still, even if the JSF will serve strictly as a special purpose unit, my original point still stands: "The JSF (specifically, the F-35C) will be serving as the Navy's stealthy carrier-based aircraft in the coming years." I never implied it had to be a general purpose airplane.

You're right, we're arguing two different points, especially since I agree that it's best to lowball procurement expectations.

 

[Healz]

Ok, but it still seems a bit too conventional and there is still the role of carrier-bomber that an F-35C would not be as good at. The F-117N had the perfect shape for a long-range carrier aircraft with large wings that could be filled with fuel for long flights. It was rejected. Therefore it seems the Navy will never have a good carrier-bomber in service...

 

[Cutlass]

the F35 will probably out perform the F117 in every respect. There's been a lot learned since the F117 was created.

 

[Healz]

Yes, but it is still hindered by having to carry bombs and its small size.

 

[Cutlass]

It's a bomber. It's supposed to carry bombs.

 

[Yakk]

Bombers which don't carry bombs are more hindered than those that do.

 

[Cutlass]

F117 - Some stats

Specifications
An orthographically projected diagram of the F-117A Nighthawk
General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Length: 69 ft 9 in (20.08 m)
* Wingspan: 43 ft 4 in (13.20 m)
* Height: 12 ft 9.5 in (3.78 m)
* Wing area: 780 ft² (73 m²)
* Empty weight: 29,500 lb (13,380 kg)
* Loaded weight: 52,500 lb (23,800 kg)
* Powerplant: 2× General Electric F404-F1D2 turbofans, 10,600 lbf (48.0 kN) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 0.92 (617 mph, 993 km/h)
* Cruise speed: Mach 0.92
* Range: 930 NM[37] (1720 km)
* Service ceiling 69,000 ft (20,000 m)
* Wing loading: 65 lb/ft² (330 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight: 0.40

Armament

* 2× internal weapons bays with one hardpoint each (total of two weapons) equipped to carry:
o Bombs:
+ BLU-109 hardened penetrator
+ GBU-10 Paveway II laser-guided bomb
+ GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bomb
+ GBU-27 Paveway III laser-guided bomb
+ JDAM INS/GPS guided munition


F35 - some stats

General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Length: 50 ft 6 in (15.37 m)
* Wingspan: 35 ft 0 in (10.65 m)
* Height: 17 ft 4 in (5.28 m)
* Wing area: 459.6 ft² (42.7 m²)
* Empty weight: 29,000 lb A; 32,200 lb B; 32,100 lb C[75] (13,200 kg A; 14,600 kg B; 14,600 kg C)
* Loaded weight: 44,400 lb (20,100 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 60,000 lb (27,200 kg)
* Powerplant: 1× Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
o Dry thrust: 25,000 lbf[22] (111 kN)
o Thrust with afterburner: 40,000+ lbf[22] (178+ kN)
* Secondary Powerplant: 1× General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136 afterburning turbofan, >40,000 lbf (178 kN) [in development]
* Lift fan (STOVL): 1× Rolls-Royce Lift System driven from either F135 or F136 power plant, 18,000 lbf (80 kN)

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 1.6+[22] (1,200 mph, 1,931 km/h)
* Range: A: 1,200 nmi; B: 900 nm; C: 1400 nm[22] (A: 2,200 km; B: 1,667 km; C: 2,593 km) on internal fuel
* Combat radius: 600 nmi (690 mi, 1,110 km)
* Rate of climb: classified (not publicly available)
* Wing loading: 91.4 lb/ft² (446 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight:
o With full fuel: A: 0.89; B: 0.92; C: 0.81[22]
o With 50% fuel: A: 1.12; B: 1.10; C: 1.01[22]

g-Limits[76]

* F-35A: 9 g
* F-35B: 9 g
* F-35C: 9 g

Armament

* Guns: 1 × GAU-12/U 25 mm cannon — slated to be mounted internally with 180 rounds in the F-35A and fitted as an external pod with 220 rounds in the F-35B and F-35C.[22]
* Hardpoints: 6 with a capacity of 15,000 lb (6,800 kg)[22],
* Missiles: Internal: 6 air-air missiles or 2 air-air missile and 2 air-surface weapons; External: 2 missiles and 4 missiles/bombs[22]


I think it's clear which is the more capable aircraft. My point, as before, is not the ability of the aircraft, but the ability to purchase it in large enough numbers to make a real difference.

 

[lutzj]

So the F117 was subsonic? No wonder they rejected it.

 

[bestbrian]

Truly remarkable how off-topic this thread has gotten. In any event, yes, the F117 is subsonic. The F117 was designed as a strategic platform to penetrate deep into Warsaw Pact integrated air defenses and eliminate high-value C3I targets. It is a very specialized platform, hence only two weapon hard points in the interior bomb bay and the lack of supersonic capability (afterburners compromise the stealth characteristics of the aircraft). Such a weapon system on a carrier is nice to have, but of limited usefulness. At the time the F117 was designed the Navy was trying to get away from specialized aircraft and reduce the different models of aircraft on its carriers. That is why over the last 20 years one platform, the F18, has assumed the responsibilities of the F14 (air defense), A7 (light attack), A6 (medium attack), and A5 (recon). The goal has been to reduce maintenance, upkeep, and increase interoperability, thus, the F117 was not the right aircraft for the Navy at the time it was designed. However, the F35, due to its versatility as a stealthy version of a traditional fighter-bomber, is very useful as a supplement to the F18 (particularly in assuming the A6's old missions).