Why is nobody building Theatre Squares?

Update: Built my first Acropolis in Athens on T105 (right after finishing the Settler), I'm now up to having six of those babies.

40 turns later, Kupe built his first Theatre Square, hooray! Qin (the only AI I haven't met yet) got the Great Library.



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on T200, France have two TSs, Maori and Japan have one each. I haven't seen the Maori TS yet (since they cannot earn Writers it's possible they have a Marae), but Japan and France don't even own an Amphitheatre yet. (their GWAM count is equal across the board) One of the AIs recruited Valmiki with Faith (likely with no slots to put the works in :crazyeye:), but I got my first Writer (Shakespeare) and Artist (Michelangelo) on T200 exactly.

None of the others have built a TS yet. Not even America, Kongo and Ethiopia, who should get them. What a mess.

It's as if the AI coders had an assignment to make them more competitive and win more quickly, so they took the straightforward route. Observe how every ai goes straight for the Pingala science update in the capital every time. The game still lacks a Soren Johnson-like figure at the helm, who doesnt put up with the constant shortcuts (or maybe the code base is too messy to make serious improvements, who knows).

To be honest, I like that the AI goes after science more aggressively. It provides a small increase in challenge that I quite enjoy. I also like how the AI now succeeds in getting pretty deep into the Space Race. The problem is that *every* AI-controlled opponent seems to do it and that's rly, rly dumb. It really brings out the flaws of the AI programming in this game. There's only 'one' true AI in this game, it has the same playstyle, irrespective of what Civ it plays. That is the underlying issue that I'm observing. A Kristina should not play like a Seondeok or a Pericles. But they all do roughly the same, because they are controlled by the same AI.
 
Yeah no. Immortal and Deity AI's get a lot of free stuff and yield modifiers that are unfun to play against. Playing against 12 opponents, all of which cheat. Only 1 or, if you're lucky, two strategies work against that, all of them involving forgoing fun peace building and attacking aggressively in the Ancient Era and Classical Era. Hard, hard pass.
Emperor is my upper limit and I don't even like playing Emperor (with most Civs anyway, and since I usually roll my Civ at random...)
I agree with the sentiment, it actually hits pretty close to one of my philosophies about difficulty levels, but I think you're approach takes this to far:

I believe that as a turn-based strategy game, increasing the difficulty level doesn't make the game harder; rather it limits the number of viable strategies that will be successful. When you're playing a first-person shooter, increasing the difficulty level makes the opponents move faster, have smaller hit boxes, shoot more often and accurately, your shots do less damage and their shots do more damage to you. This makes the game harder. But as a turn-based strategy game, having the opposition be front-loaded with lots of extra units (and consequently cities) as well as difficulty multipliers to their various yield accumulations forces you to compensate by prioritizing some options (which you don't find fun) over other options (which you'd prefer.) Consequently, playing at higher difficulty levels means that many of your creative approaches will not be successful and you fall into at least some degree of rinse/repeat playing, which really kills the replay value of the game.

That said, I'm not the best player on this forum. By far. But I have won deity in all four of the original main victory conditions with civs that are poorly suited towards that victory condition, and all before turn 240. However, I prefer to play deity very rarely because I enjoy the game more on lower levels. Here's my very generalized interpretation of the difficulty levels:

Prince and below: only for players who are just learning the fundamentals of the game.
King: for players who know the fundamentals but haven't yet learned how to implement them effectively. Also for experimenting with new "unproven" tactics and strategies - Doing so at lower difficulties may give false impressions and conclusions as the AI's limitations make them uncompetitive. At King, they're at least trying but put up little resistance (which is the source of your main concern.)
Emperor (no barbs): for when a proficient player wants to play a game where everything works out the way they planned (on a personal note, ever since the Covid thing, this is my go-to.) Often this involves wanting to implement a certain strategy or have a certain chain of events unfold before even starting the game and seeing what your starting location looks like. But even at this difficulty level, there's a point quite early on, maybe halfway through the world congress's medieval era, where the player just starts to snowball and is producing 2 or 3 times the yields of the second-placed civ. In my current game (Maori/Terra/Religious), I've hit the turning point to start spamming 6-charge apostles and convert everyone to win the game. Unfortunately. at turn 126 I have 14 cities and am producing over 800 faith per turn and each of the other civs only have 6-8 cities in their empire, meaning I only need to convert 4 or 5 cities per civilization, and I see very little religious combat that I'll have to overcome. It would be much more epic to have to face carpets of apostles and need to convert dozens of cities, but that's the effect of playing at a low difficulty level.
Emperor: for when a proficient player wants to play a game where everything works out the way they planned, but compared to the previous entry they may have to delay some critical infrastructure to get some units out to deal with barbarian headaches. Without barbs, Emperor level lets you get those key improvements and second city out so fast that you've secured the game by your 3rd or 4th build; my opening build order on Emperor without barbs is often builder/settler. With barbs, I need a slinger and maybe a second warrior which can delay the second city and some happy/ecstatic yield bonuses for a dozen turns or so. Either way, looking at the great person recruitment history is a good indicator of when the game stopped being a game: Maybe the first page has a different civ recruiting each consecutive great person, but as you scroll down it's usually 7-10 consecutive great people that I recruited followed by one great person that another civ got (which is usually one of the worst GPs of that class as I boxed them out of the good ones) followed by another 7-10 great people that I got.
Immortal: for when a proficient player wants to play a game where there's some level of immersion and having to make adjustments to a few of the tactics they are implementing. We don't approach the game with a single strategy (Korea Seowon spam in every city to win science victory with minimal military necessary for DoW deterrent.) Instead there are several approaches (Korea Seowon spam for science victory, but also which city-state suzy bonuses to maximize, implementation of trade routes, timing-pushes for more free cities with pre-built infrastructure, faith accumulation and utilization, etc.) and at Immortal maybe one or two of these approaches may need to be forgone in place of a compensatory tactic, but the game is still going to play out the way you planned, just without being able to fully exploit the tactics you planned to use.
Deity: for a proficient player, if they want to stubbornly play the game using a certain set of strategies and maximize the effect of them(of which I am often guilty of) then they're going to have some frustrating times. But if you play adaptively to the situation, it's still quite the cakewalk. The time in which you start to run away from the AI is often quite later in the game, but you still hit a point where you can do whatever you want and be successful.

Having said all that and looking at your turn 100 map photo, I see that by that time you have 7 cities which is good; the benchmark to shoot for is 10 by turn 100 but the new rules make tall cities a more viable approach and you have to consider tile productivity, you're building walls in the right cities coupled with a well placed encampment to deal with the civ to the west, city and district placement are pretty good - most of your districts have adjacency bonuses (although I would have settled Pharsolas 1 tile east for a +5 holy site and +4 campus but that's fine.) In summary your understanding of the game mechanics is enough that yes, King is going to provide little to no resistance for you. The upside is that you're going to be able to surpass and dominate the AI very early on. The downside is that you'll reach the point where the game becomes boring because you have no real competition very early and approaching your chosen victory condition will be a monotonous, next-turn-clicking snoozefest, as well as seeing things like the AI hasn't even started generating one GP point per turn when you've already recruited several of that type, and finding yourself 2 or more eras ahead of the AI. My assessment is that you should be playing Immortal - at that level you'll have to play more reactively but still be able to outclass the AI quite early while seeing some of the resistance/efforts that you feel are lacking.
 
My money says it's because it wound up on the dead end civic. The AI likes to beeline certain things. If it wasn't on the way to something else they just skipped it. The fact that none of your opponents other than Kristina are culture oriented isn't helping. She sometimes goes science so the RNG may have been in your favor. Last culture game I played both the Maori and Gaul had plenty of Theaters with works my spies could steal.
 
My money says it's because it wound up on the dead end civic. The AI likes to beeline certain things. If it wasn't on the way to something else they just skipped it. The fact that none of your opponents other than Kristina are culture oriented isn't helping. She sometimes goes science so the RNG may have been in your favor. Last culture game I played both the Maori and Gaul had plenty of Theaters with works my spies could steal.

Drama and Poetry also ended up in a dead end. The difference was that the dead end happened three techs after D&P. But you're right, Shuffle didn't help here, but still.

I agree with the sentiment, it actually hits pretty close to one of my philosophies about difficulty levels, but I think you're approach takes this to far:

I believe that as a turn-based strategy game, increasing the difficulty level doesn't make the game harder; rather it limits the number of viable strategies that will be successful. When you're playing a first-person shooter, increasing the difficulty level makes the opponents move faster, have smaller hit boxes, shoot more often and accurately, your shots do less damage and their shots do more damage to you. This makes the game harder. But as a turn-based strategy game, having the opposition be front-loaded with lots of extra units (and consequently cities) as well as difficulty multipliers to their various yield accumulations forces you to compensate by prioritizing some options (which you don't find fun) over other options (which you'd prefer.) Consequently, playing at higher difficulty levels means that many of your creative approaches will not be successful and you fall into at least some degree of rinse/repeat playing, which really kills the replay value of the game.

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. It certainly is why I don't enjoy playing on Emperor with higher Civs or why I never bothered with Immortal/Deity. Though, I will say, this was my first Emperor game in about two years and I did enjoy it.

Difficulty is something that's hard to scale in most games. The past two months, I've been playing Dragon Age Inquisition. Lovely game, but way too easy, even Hard difficulty poses no real challenge. This entirely due to the fact that enemy levels don't scale and that you level up too quickly (it's one of those games that is nail-bitingly difficult early on, and then becomes a cakewalk by the endgame). Fortunately, you can amend those problems by enabling trials that halve your XP gain or allow your enemies to scale up to the level of your main character. This sort of modular difficulty increase I very much miss in Civ. Additional flat bonuses are dull at best and frustrating at worst.

but I digress

My assessment is that you should playing Immortal - at that level you'll have to play more reactively but still be able to outclass the AI quite early while seeing some of the resistance/efforts that you feel are lacking.

Lol sweetie, I only reached 7 cities because I got lucky and popped a relic from a goodie hut and got the free settler from Religious Settlements. Any religious Civ in the game and I'm at 6 cities, which is a lot for me on T100 (I usually have 4-5 by T100). So while it's flattering that you think I can handle Immortal, I think still with King and Emperor.

Anyway, I won the game on T333. I could have won sooner if Kupe hadn't beaten me to Statue of Liberty, but I eventually won via Culture, as intended.

The AI eventually did build the Theater Squares, but too late (Roosevelt completed his first around T300), and when they did neglected to build the Museums. Eleanor was the only one who did and she went for Archaeological Museums (which worked because she had a small collection of Artefacts by the end).

From a group of Civs that should excel at Culture, I expected better?

At least I now know it's due to a combination of difficulty and different priorities, but it's still strange. Ethiopia went for a Culture Victory and were INUNDATING me with Rock Bands at the end. Menelik didn't build a single Theater Square or own a single Great Work. Me playing Pericles mattered little. This would have been doable with Shaka or Poundmaker. I think that the AI should show more variation in the victory path they take, so that, no matter which Civs you roll, there are always a couple that go Culture and compete for GWAMs. At it happens now, only Greece and France appear compete for them and that's a shame.
 
I also won a culture victory much much quicker than usual on my first playthrough with the new patch.

could mean nothing, just throwing it out there
 
What mods are you using?

None that are affecting gameplay. Dynamic City Names, Better Civ Icons, Better Civ Colours, Capture Unique Improvements, that's it.

I also won a culture victory much much quicker than usual on my first playthrough with the new patch.

could mean nothing, just throwing it out there

Happened to me too! Got a superfast CV as Russia a few days back, where I won on a huge map early into the Industrial Era. Got every GWAM and won.

I didn't rly ask myself any questions because, you know, Russia, but then the same thing happened in yesterday's Germany game and well... thread.
 
Theatre Squares are generally ignored by the AI in most cases, although this can also be chalked up the whims of the AI.

Currently playing a game on Immortal in which I claimed the first great scientist, on turn 87. There was a massive rush on religion and everyone was generating great prophet points, including my neighbour on the continent, Germany, who did happen to have settled next to two natural wonders.

I would be fascinated to see what the decision making towards districts are. I suspect that the AI don't plan ahead in expectation of unlocking a district, with some hard coded preferences and a bit of playing the map.

Campuses and Holy Sites seem at the top of the list for most civs, a lot of civs also like to build early encampments and Entertainment Complexes. Add to that Preserves, Commercial Hubs, the Government Plaza and the Diplomatic Quarter, and Theatre Squares are having to deal with a lot of competition by the time they are unlocked, and the AI may have used up their current district slots causing further delay.

I don't know whether firetuner can do this, but I might try and see what would happen if those culture based civs would build if they had every district unlocked from the start, and whether it would effect the number of Theatre Squares.
 
I suspect that the AI don't plan ahead in expectation of unlocking a district, with some hard coded preferences and a bit of playing the map.

They certainly don't plan a lot. In recent patches AI did build their Campus in good, at least +3 places, while they would still to build their Government Plaza in their 5th or 6th crappy city with only 2 population.
 
it stands for 'Rapid Early Expansion'. Basically when you build a bunch of settlers early and quickly settle every location you can.
 
I've just got into playing again since December and have found the same thing, very few TS being built, even on Deity difficulty (I'm not a proficient deity player but I was playing Babylon and a lot of Modes so I wasn't too worried). I had Kongo and Russia offering me trades of GWW for my strat resources, which I happily accepted, and now eading this thread I see it must have been that they had no slots for the GW's their civ abilities produced.

I'm also finding it hard to include TS in my priorities. I was trying to catch up on several updates, playing heroes and SS (for the updated Hermetic Order) as well as the new mode, and the new Preserve district. Despite the lack of TS's all around, the AI still had great cultural output as did I, eventually.

If the AI is satisfied with its cultural output from other sources it may very well use up its district slots on other things like Encampments and Campuses. I found those GP races to be insanely competitive.

Basically, since I'm having a hard time focusing when I have to consider pursuing a certain hero and settling that Natural Wonder and building a Preserve and don't forget the Diplo Quarter and oh I need a Stock Exchange to display my Products...it's easy to see the AI being "overwhelmed" in the sense that they can't seem to pursue a meaningful strategy.
 
I'm trying a game on Deity and I saw a few TS in Rome and Scythia. I am not sure about the other civs because those are the two that are pushing both science and culture hard. As they were ahead of me, I had to slow them down on both fronts. Saw some TS on my way through with Rock Bands and also some that had GW to steal. Granted, they aren't building tons of them but they are building them.
 
Yeah, I've kind of noticed the same (Diety only player here). I just finished up a Kublai domination and I think only two civs on the map had even built a theater square. However, I don't think this is a bad thing: in fact, if the developers were looking to make the AI better, that's one of the first things I would do too. Theater squares are honestly terrible, and I only build them myself if I have some very specific Civ-specific reason to do it. The yields on them are just so pathetic: it takes an obnoxious amount of effort to get even a +2 adjacency, and +2 culture really isn't good, you can get that so easily in any number of other ways that don't require you to build a district. Then, all you get for all this effort is really bad great people, who give you no real yields at all, just anemic amounts of tourism that you can easily match in about a dozen other ways. Think about how much, time, production, and effort it takes to make a themed art museum: now compare the tourism yields you get out of it vs. just one good national park, which is infinitely cheaper and easier to build.

To summarize, theater squares are pretty easily the worst district (with the possible exception of diplo quarter) and you really shouldn't be building them either with most civs.
 
Yeah, I've kind of noticed the same (Diety only player here). I just finished up a Kublai domination and I think only two civs on the map had even built a theater square. However, I don't think this is a bad thing: in fact, if the developers were looking to make the AI better, that's one of the first things I would do too. Theater squares are honestly terrible, and I only build them myself if I have some very specific Civ-specific reason to do it. The yields on them are just so pathetic: it takes an obnoxious amount of effort to get even a +2 adjacency, and +2 culture really isn't good, you can get that so easily in any number of other ways that don't require you to build a district. Then, all you get for all this effort is really bad great people, who give you no real yields at all, just anemic amounts of tourism that you can easily match in about a dozen other ways. Think about how much, time, production, and effort it takes to make a themed art museum: now compare the tourism yields you get out of it vs. just one good national park, which is infinitely cheaper and easier to build.

I don't think TS is that bad; however, I do agree that AIs don't seem to know how to theme a museum, unless I actively trade them with theme-able Great Works/Artifacts. If AI is naturally bad at understanding complex mechanisms, less interacting with these mechanisms can make them a bit better.
 
Theater Squares are designed to be dependent on great works; which is why their base yield is bad.

I don't really think them not building TS's when not pursuing a CV to be that bad; the AI has much worse deficiencies anyways-- they just can't win below Deity and it's mostly the player failing rather than the AI winning.
 
If you’re playing Emperor, you should be fine on Immortal. While the AI does get bigger bonuses, city-states start with walls and this will tie down multiple opponents in the early game. I find that the early game is easier due to it.
 
Theater Squares are designed to be dependent on great works; which is why their base yield is bad.

I don't really think them not building TS's when not pursuing a CV to be that bad; the AI has much worse deficiencies anyways-- they just can't win below Deity and it's mostly the player failing rather than the AI winning.

I get what you're saying man, but the yields off great works aren't really anything to write home about either. Let's say you build a TS with +3 adjacency (which isn't the easiest), get an amphitheater, earn a great writer and fill it. That still only clears you 9 culture per turn, which isn't a whole lot considering how much time and production you had to take to get there, and how long you have to wait for this all to kick in. Considering how many ready sources of culture there are in this game, I just don't see the TS as very efficient or necessary.
 
Try increasing the difficultly and add Russia and Greece as opponents.

I agree though, it would be nice if other CIV, who lean culture, focus on culture/TH.

If you're playing with monopoly mode on, I turn that off since it's busted.
 
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