Why is Republic better than Monarchy?

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I've never seen a mid to late game anarchy with less than 7 turns. Level dependant?

Unit support: You start to safe gpt in Demo once your total unit count exceeds 50% of the non-free Republic units.
Example:
100 free units in Republic. Once you have 151 units, Demo saves cash.
But, one more town growing to a city -> 2 more free units.

That said, I did have situations where Demo was better. Archipelagos (lots of ships) + no Slave Labor + limited # of cities.
But, about as often as I saw a use for Feudalism .

 

[budweiser]

The size of your empire is one factor in determining the length of anarchy (it takes longer to get everything under control).You guys that are seeing 7 or 8 turn revolutions likely control large parcels of land. If you kept your size down to 8-10 cities on a standard map, then you wouldn't be as likely to get a long revolt.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I rarely own more than 20% land. And I often struggle to get enough cities for the FP. So, I doubt this is the main reason (though of course, it is a 100% correct observation).
I really think is caused by the levels I play on.

 

[gunkulator]

Er... tile penalty

Um, it was you who said "government is irrelevent" for early conquest/domination. If you truly plan on wrapping things up before the Middle Ages, I suspect you're looking at realtively few 7+ size cities, which means you're working mostly irrigated plains, mined grass and the occasional forest. Tile penalty would rarely be a factor. Also, Despotism's support of 4 vs. (mostly) 2 for Monarchy seems to outweigh the slight corruption advantage.

 

[k-a-bob]

Do you know what's funny? The thread title is "Why is Republic better than Monarchy?" and here we are talking Democracy!

Actually, if you only have 10-12 cities, I can see how the revolt to Demo wouldn't take long, and not be as much of a factor.

I had to revolt out of Demo once, because I was in a huge war with an AI superpower (his choosing - damn Americans) and even at 50% lux, I had disorders. It took me 8 turns to get out.

If you are a take over the world kind of player like Tr1cky, Tomoyo (or me) Demo and the revolt to it are not going to be very useful.

Plus, if you are in Republic and your opponent is in Demo - you have a WW advantage...

I rarely own more than 20% land. And I often struggle to get enough cities for the FP. So, I doubt this is the main reason (though of course, it is a 100% correct observation).
I really think is caused by the levels I play on.

You doubt what is the main reason?
The number of cities you have is not dependent on the levels you play on, it is dependent on the way you play the game.
on edit: (I don't mean "poorly" or "well" - I mean warmonger or builder, etc)

 

[Turner]

The forumla for anarchy is 1 to 5 turns, depending on the number of cities, plus a random 0 to 3 turns. I don't recall if anyone has ever figured out how many cities. It would be a nice test for someone, right?

I know when I have about 10 to 15 cities, I can expect about a five turn anarchy. Sometimes a little less, but usually around 5. 5 is way to long, IMO, and so I strive to get to republic ASAP and minimize the anarchy. Even go so far as to hold off on a city or two when I know I'm about to get Republic.

 

[tR1cKy]

Um, it was you who said "government is irrelevent" for early conquest/domination. If you truly plan on wrapping things up before the Middle Ages, I suspect you're looking at realtively few 7+ size cities, which means you're working mostly irrigated plains, mined grass and the occasional forest. Tile penalty would rarely be a factor. Also, Despotism's support of 4 vs. (mostly) 2 for Monarchy seems to outweigh the slight corruption advantage.

My bad. Sometimes i'm not 100% clear in what i say (my english is far from being perfect). What i meant is that, when you use the zero research gambit, government is irrelevant for research purpose, since you research a tech at the max turn limit anyway.

But despotism is almost never a good option. Grassland are stuck at 2 food, so population growth is always slower. Floodplains and hills are penalized. Money from luxuries and bonuses is often wasted. And a golden age in despotism means a huge loss of shields and money.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

my $.02. you're all arguing in circles, comparing apples to oranges. Below monarch, you can keep up with the tech pace as a monarchy. Above that you're gonna get slaughtered. This all gets voided if your civ is religious. IMIO, what's more important is how you manage the specialists once you've got CE and cops.

 

[Tomoyo]

If you are a take over the world kind of player like Tr1cky, Tomoyo (or me) Demo and the revolt to it are not going to be very useful.

Who, me? I prefer Republic in peaceful games too!

 

[tR1cKy]

my $.02. you're all arguing in circles, comparing apples to oranges. Below monarch, you can keep up with the tech pace as a monarchy. Above that you're gonna get slaughtered.

It's possible to keep up with the tech pace even in deity, while in monarchy.

This all gets voided if your civ is religious.

Can you please explain why?

IMIO, what's more important is how you manage the specialists once you've got CE and cops.

Ufff.... another fan of acronyms. Please, what is a CE ?!? Civil engineers or something else? And what civil engineers have to do with the "monarchy vs. republic" issue?

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Can you please explain why?

personal pref - as a religious civ, you can change to whatever the situation calls for without too much of a penalty.

It's possible to keep up with the tech pace even in deity, while in monarchy

i haven't had the right condiitions to be able to do this.

Ufff.... another fan of acronyms. Please, what is a CE ?!? Civil engineers or something else? And what civil engineers have to do with the "monarchy vs. republic" issue?

In my idiot opinion. CE = civil engineers. This is inuititive, move than emphiric. Use of CE's and other specialists is magnified by rep.

 

[tR1cKy]

i haven't had the right condiitions to be able to do this.

Trade and extorsions. It's almost impossible to stay on par with own research.

In my idiot opinion. CE = civil engineers. This is inuititive, move than emphiric. Use of CE's and other specialists is magnified by rep.

This is conquest thing, and i'm quite unfamiliar with that. Cannot confirm (nor belittle) your point.

 

[k-a-bob]

Who, me? I prefer Republic in peaceful games too!

I was actually referring to Democracy.
I think I'm going goofy here!

 

[Tomoyo]

No, I was saying that what you said (that I was a warmongerer that found Demo not worth it) was inaccurate because I'm, in fact, a peacenik that found Demo not worth it.

 

[tR1cKy]

Me too, i prefer Republic in peaceful games.

Now, if only i could remember the last time i played a peaceful game...

 

[Rohili]

No, I was saying that what you said (that I was a warmongerer that found Demo not worth it) was inaccurate because I'm, in fact, a peacenik that found Demo not worth it.

Again, if you are peaceful, then Democracy has absolutely no disadvantages over Republic, since the issue of WW no longer exists. Why would you still prefer Republic?

Yes, there's the anarchy, but it is worth it. The amount of extra gold you get from Democracy is astounding. Other than lessened corruption and unit costs, your workers also work 50% faster, allowing you to build those roads and rails faster, hence increasing commerce and production.

 

[tR1cKy]

Did you mod your game Rohili?

The money bonus is exactly the same as republic and, for what i remember of my (very early) pacifist games, the gain from lower corruption is barely noticeable. The advantage of fast workers is absolutely marginal: when democracy were available, my territory was almost entirely roaded and improved, and i had enough workers to build rails very fast anyway. I don't think that 6-7 turns of anarchy are worth those marginal (and transitory) gains.

About the "being peaceful" story, you cannot overlook the fact that sometimes war comes in without waiting for your approval, and you find yourself quite prone to WW penalty, even more than you can suffer in ancient or medieval age. I remember the AS sneak-attacking with cavalries and tanks, sometimes capturing a city or two before i was able to retaliate. Needless to say that WW hits very fast in such cases.

Finally about unit costs: since you're mentioning the lower upkeep, i must assume that you're talking about the conquest version of republic. Well, didn't you notice that there's unit support as well? The less upkeep cost isn't a given fact: actually, it's likely to be increased in democracy.

 

[Rohili]

Did you mod your game Rohili?

No I did not. By money bonus I was referring to

1) Halved upkeep costs (1 instead of 2 gold)
2) Less corruption
3) Faster workers resulting in faster land improvements (this affects commerce and productivity indirectly at the very least)

Admittedly you will inevitably get dragged into wars even with a peaceful strategy, however war weariness should hardly be an issue here. You can typically end wars before WW sets in.

(BTW, I always build the universal suffrage when using Demo, maybe that's why WW does not seem to be much of an issue for me)

 

[Tatran]

The money bonus is exactly the same as republic and, for what i remember of my (very early) pacifist games, the gain from lower corruption is barely noticeable.

Something like 1-2% is indeed hardly worth another anarchy.

 

[tR1cKy]

1) Halved upkeep costs (1 instead of 2 gold)

This sounds quite odd.

Let's suppose an empire or 40 cities, all of them size 7+ with no metropolis. Republic gives 120 free units (free in sense of upkeep, of course!), while Democracy gives zero. This means that no less than 240 units are needed to take advantage of the decreased cost per unit. Giving a per-city count, it's 6 military units per city, in a scenario in which no unit is needed for military police purposes. What do you do with all those units, considering you want to play a peaceful game?