Why is there NOTHING TO EXPLORE??

[Cruiser]

Why is there nothing left to explore and settle by the time we get to caravels, and sometimes even before?? One reason is the AI CHEATS.

I have regularly spotted galleys in seas (w/o the Lighthouse) and even deep oceans. Once when playing a Realistic Starting Positions on a map of Earth, I, as the Japanese, spotted a German galley sailing merrily around the Kamchatka Peninsula southwest of the Bering Staight - about ten thousand miles from home! :crazyeyes

I then swapped world maps with the German to see if there was any way it could have gotten there. No way. About five thousand miles were black between the nearest German city and the galley; it must have been parachuted in from outer space.

That's one example of many.

The Explorer unit is useless. And unless you can do all you exploring with galleys, forget settling anywhere in the Medieval (or later) Age, as we liked to do in Civ II.

The reason for this nonsense in large part is that the AI cheats getting possibly free galleys, extra MP's, and certainly having galleys never sink in any water.

It stinks.

Fix it, Firaxis.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

hmmmmmm. I think i've seen about 6 million posts on this topic. Just realize that the AI does cheat, and always will. I don't think that the ocean-going galleys should be your biggest concern.....

 

[Cruiser]

Yea. I guess six million posts care about logic, playabilty, and common sense - and you DON'T! :crazyeyes


Whether it "always will" is Sid's choice - and I hope he makes the RIGHT one. FIX it!!!

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

Yea. I guess six million people care about logic and common sense - and you DON'T!

Or maybe 2 people have posted 3 million times a piece and the rest of us like to actually play the game and talk about playing the game instead of SPAMMING forums and *****ing about every single problem. They have a place for you, its called apolyton!

 

[Cruiser]

That's right. Attack personally the poster since you can't defend Sid's lack of logic and cheating. How lame.




Has anyone ever wondered if Firaxis HIRES people to act as apologists and shills for this flawed game? I do.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

That's right. Attack personally the poster since you can't defend Sid's lack of logic and cheating. How lame.

There is logic in it. Read my post in the thread 100% proof the AI cheats. The logic is that a "smart" AI will never happen. These cheats help simulate a smart idea. In my opinion, SPAMMING is more lame. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

Has anyone ever wondered if Firaxis HIRES people to act as apologists and shills for this flawed game? I do.

Who's apoligizing?

P.S. I am not interested in continuing this conversation. If you are really that persistent. E-mail me. No more of this childish spamming nonsense!

 

[etj4Eagle]

It also just depends on the map and what there is. In my previous game, there were some significant land that remained unclaimed for a fair bit into the game. I was quite surprised when I came across them (took the larger closer one, and another civ eventually many turns later took teh other resource rich one).

 

[Selous]

i agree that the AI expands in this unreal way ... i assume this is due to the fact that the AI can see the whole map already ... and also that they can sail there tremeres over the oceans ... i would prefer to give the AI a bit more of a production boost rather than this (as i do agree that the AI still aint up to humi opponent .. but is still a huge improvement generally!) ..... there are never any australias in the game NEVER EVER!!!!(i mean unexplored continent) ... sometimes there might be a small new zealand left around ... and sometimes a few pacific style islands .... but i really dont think there are enough!! ... even on archelepigo there are bugger all islands ... is mostly small continants ... just missing a large side to civilization i think ..... the colionilization of the new worlds ... then there are chaps that continue to say it is just a game ... and not life ... blahblah .... why did u ever move up from pong? ... is all a game? .... and if u looks deeper down ... isnt it all a game anyways? .... so why are u sticking around at all? ... opps .. ranting ... this isnt just a game .... just a game is hopscoch or red red rover .... we all payed for this so that makes us CONSUMERS not just uninterested parties ... if U made the game out of your own time and effort and someone said that something is broken or whatever (assuming u dont like constructive crittism) then u have a right to tell your crittics to go and bugger off ... BUT .. if u make a game ... and get payed large sums of money to do it .... then as a CONSUMER i have a right to complain ... ranting again u think? .... yea probally

 

[Pragmatic]

Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ


<snip>

Who's apoligizing?

<snip>

No, no, no. He said "apologist," not "apologizer." They are totally separate things.

An apologist is someone who explains things. That's it. For instance, in the early days of the X-ian church, non X-ians weren't sure what to make of the new-fangled religion. So letters were circulated by apologists, explaining the new religion, in the hopes of deflecting unwarranted criticism.

At least, that's what I remember from my few college courses in religion....

 

[TrailblazingScot]

I think Gonzo is guilty...what with being a evil despot and all...poor little Cruiser

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Selous
i agree that the AI expands in this unreal way ... i assume this is due to the fact that the AI can see the whole map already ... and also that they can sail there tremeres over the oceans ... i would prefer to give the AI a bit more of a production boost rather than this (as i do agree that the AI still aint up to humi opponent .. but is still a huge improvement generally!) ..... there are never any australias in the game NEVER EVER!!!!(i mean unexplored continent) ... sometimes there might be a small new zealand left around ... and sometimes a few pacific style islands .... but i really dont think there are enough!! ... even on archelepigo there are bugger all islands ... is mostly small continants ... just missing a large side to civilization i think ..... the colionilization of the new worlds ... then there are chaps that continue to say it is just a game ... and not life ... blahblah .... why did u ever move up from pong? ... is all a game? .... and if u looks deeper down ... isnt it all a game anyways? .... so why are u sticking around at all? ... opps .. ranting ... this isnt just a game .... just a game is hopscoch or red red rover .... we all payed for this so that makes us CONSUMERS not just uninterested parties ... if U made the game out of your own time and effort and someone said that something is broken or whatever (assuming u dont like constructive crittism) then u have a right to tell your crittics to go and bugger off ... BUT .. if u make a game ... and get payed large sums of money to do it .... then as a CONSUMER i have a right to complain ... ranting again u think? .... yea probally

I think we sometimes overlook the reason for this. The AI is not cheating here, 99% of the time, all major landmasses start with at least one civ on them. In real history, this is true as well. The America's were hardly unoccupied or undiscovered, nor was Australia. They simply were not known to Europeans. Now, in a game that essentially allows for an alternate earth, where any culture can become dominant, the cultures that occupied these "unexplored" lands tend to keep up with the other cultures. In a way, on lower difficulty levels anyway, civs that are isolated on their own continent, tend to be very backwards compared to the rest of world, providing possible scenarios reminiscent of Hernan Cortez's conquest of cultures in south america. The only way to achieve a situation where there are large, unexplored landmasses with no residents, is to start the game with a small number of civs on a larger map. Rarely do I see an AI colonial city on a continent well out of the reach of triremes, but I believe the AI can probably go a little further out than the human can. Or maybe the AI just keeps trying until a trireme makes it across, most AI civs seem to have no shortage of settlers to waste.

 

[Exile_Ian]

I think the original post in this thread was wrong for several reasons:

• Yes the AI has advantages over the Human player - they're there to attempt to balance the play. (What's the point of having too weak a computer opponent?).
• It's not 'cheating' if its programmed that way.
• If the AI couldn't see the whole map, then I'd have a real advantage on a World Map wouldn't I? (Duh, I know there's an American continent out there somewhere).

As for whether there's any world left to explore later in the game - that must depend on how big your map is, how many civs are playing and how the gameplay goes. I'm currently playing on the huge world map (and we're currently at the Ironclad stage) and I know that there's significant amounts of land in South America and Australasia that are not explored/populated. I already have a handful of cities in these areas, but haven't been able to spend the resources in expansion there.
Yes the AI is very agressive in its expansionism - you just have to play the same game - send out those galleys (hugging the coastline) and cover as much ground as possible.

 

[bonscott]

Since the patch, this has gotten a lot better. BUT, you need to be aggressive as well. Heck, send out a galley or to into the darkness, they don't *always* sink, just a good chance that they do. I have gotten a galley over the ocean squares once. Had to stop my turn twice on an ocean square and I actually made it to an island very early on that no one else knew was there.

In my latest game, there were two big continents. 6 civs on one, 2 civ on the smaller one. I always make a push for the Lighthouse or Navigation so I can get out there an explore for islands. I made it first to the other continent and founded two cities with the two settlers I brought with me. Later I found out it was the far end of that one that the 2 civs hadn't gotten to yet. As soon as I founded my 3rd city, I sold my world map to everyone. Now they all new there was open land. I got quite a few techs and moola so that was fine with me. Let's just say every civ sent out ships and founded cities there. We each had at least 2 cities in that area before we ran into the Aztechs who had wiped out the other civ and wasn't too happy we were there on "their" continent.

So, I guess that you need to be very agressive with expansion and push toward Navigation first and you'll get to the unexplored regions first most of the time.

 

[BillChin]

A couple of points. I believe galleys can go over the sea squares, but there is a chance they sink if they end their turn on a sea square. Send enough canaries and a few might make it through. If there is nothing left to explore, some of it depends on the difficulty and map size you are playing.

On Emperor difficulty, there have been games that I have settled untouched islands before the computer. This is not the common case, but I have had it happen. If a player is too far behind on Regent difficulty, they may not be building fast enough. I've posted plenty on the Strategy and Tips section on increasing the speed of the initial build out. (Build cities much closer together, or use the whip to hurry production are the two primary methods.)

The AI does seem to have some knowledge of the map, but it does not seem to be precise. That is why the AI players always want to trade maps early on. After trading maps, AI settlers make a beeline to open land. If I do not trade maps, they flounder about, using a random search. So maybe the AI cheats, but it does not have all knowledge of the map. (The computer does seem to know the garrison strength of every city you have though.)

 

[Marzipan]

I was annoyed about how quickly territory is claimed too, but then realized I could just play against fewer civs (or on a bigger map). Now I play on a medium size map against 4 other civs and the amount of unclaimed land at various points in history seem acceptable to me.

In my current game, there are two large continents on the map, and a couple of little islands. Romans (me), Egyptians, Iriquois, and Greeks all started on one continent, and the Germans started on the other. By the middle ages, the Germans had still not claimed their entire continent, and the northern end of it still had unclaimed land. Egypt and the Iriquois finally expanded into there sometime in the middle ages (I'm playing past the end of the game so I have already watched the replay of history). There was even a little tundra island with goody huts left until, like 1900! I thought about taking it but then figured "bah, who wants a tundra island halfway around the world, goody hut or no."

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

No, no, no. He said "apologist," not "apologizer." They are totally separate things.

That'll teach me to read through these threads too quickly. But, in reply to the comment, I sure wish Firaxis would hire me as an apologist, as long as they payed me, of course

I think Gonzo is guilty...what with being a evil despot and all...poor little Cruiser

Evil despots don't know guilt. Beating people to death sure is fun. Despotism rules!!!! Haven't gotten around to beating cruiser yet, though.

 

[Random Passerby]

Woah, woah, woah--you're complaining about this? I'd celebrate if I ever saw the AI getting smart enough to risk ocean crossings! Any time I'm not playing pangea (that being all the time), I sink (literally!) galley after galley into the attempt to be the first to cross the ocean, Lighthouse or no (though I also always make lighthouse a priority). You can get some obscene amounts of money brokering world maps and techs between the two hemispheres in a Continent-based game, even contact between them... except I never sell contact until Navigation or Magnetism rolls around, because before then I know I've got an airtight monopoly. I've never seen an AI civ ever send a ship out into water that it couldn't handle, however--even though I've already sold them maps that show them exactly how they can make the crossing the easiest! It doesn't matter if they know a spot where they can make a caravel crossing with only 1 turn in ocean (and thus about a 50-50 chance of making it across in one piece), they still won't bother trying.

Also, I'm pretty sure that once you have the requisite tech to sail over water of a certain roughness, all your ships gain that ability.

 

[Moulton]

Two points.
This is my first game to find land unexpored in middle ages. 1100AD. Found a whole subcontinent, with resources. The aztecs started for it immediately after I found it, although they did not have my map... they had expored part of it, and then abandoned it. I have seen very few galleys in this game. It is supposed to large islands, but it is in fact a pangea.

I have seen evidence of their crossing. On evidence alone, it is possible that they lost a few. However, once, on the Marla map, I exlored South America and Australia and refused to sell my map until I had significant settlements. I had frigates by that time, and parked a couple in the middle of the atlantic. The turn after I sold my maps, the galleys started crossing the Atlantic in droves. From my position, I could see them cross, and none of them sank.
Also, on the same map, there were about 5 mid-atlantic islands. They all had settlements on them when I exlored the atlantic, and none of those had more than galleys.

 

[Ironikinit]

I saw an AI galley in open ocean today. It was well after magnetism became common, though. I assumed that galleys gain open water ability after that time, or maybe just AI galleys.

I must be weird, when I see something I can't explain right away, I figure I can find out. Other people assume that they're being cheated and it's a big conspiracy and that the game company is paying finks to neutralize their theories. Or that everything is a bug.

"I lost to the Japanese today. Must be a bug."
"Yeah, I ran into that bug too! FIX IT FIRAXIS!"

Next thing you know there's 3 threads with a load of nonsense solutions and threats about how some geek will...

Not to diss on this thread, this is pretty good.

Please forgive my rant about rants.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
I saw an AI galley in open ocean today. It was well after magnetism became common, though. I assumed that galleys gain open water ability after that time, or maybe just AI galleys. . .

Nice to see you admit and concede the AI cheats. I can play that game; maybe I'll go into Editor and make all galleys ocean-going like the AI has??