Why is Vlad Tepes so popular in Romania?

[Kyriakos]

I have noticed that many romanians in CFC use Vlad Tepes (more known through the figure whose creation he inspired, count Dracula) in their avatar, or in their signature. Also the romanian consular in Thessalonike has written a biography of Vlad Tepes, and portrays him as a national hero. However it is certain that Vlad the Impaler was one very dark historical figure, who killed personally, or had killed, hundreds of people, and not at all always due to war. For example he killed even a police officer in the kingdom of Hungary, for petty reasons, and then he organised large scale murders of non romanian boyars.

A similar- although not so murderous apart from during an actual war- figure in greek history would be the famous byzantine emperor Basileios II, more known as Basil II the slayer of Bulgars. However greek fascination with Basil II is nowhere near the level that romanians appear to have for Vlad Tepes, and i was curious as to the reasons for that. Basil II is at any rate seen as the strongest of the second era of byzantine emperors (at the time of his death, in the beginning of the 11th century AD, the byzantine empire was clearly the strongest kingdom in europe and the middle east, and propably only couldbe compared with China in overall power) and he was victorious in the war against the arabs, managed to secure southern Italy for the empire, and utterly crushed the bulgarians in the war against Czar Symeon. Famous also for the total war tactics he deployed, he had ordered 99 out of every 100 bulgarian prissoners to be blinded, and left the 100th with only one eye so that he could lead the rest of his group back to Czar Symeon.

Most probably in Romanian history there arent many leaders who were so famous as Vlad tepes, and that would be the main reason for his popularity, but still it can be seen as a bit troubling too i think

 

[Verbose]

I've also noticed the positive version of Dracula — was he a murderous monster or a successful local monarch?

He certainly seems to have been brutal above and beyond the call of normal but rough cut and thrust of Renaissance politics.

OTOH he did provide internal stability and safety within his own lands, and put down the threat of noble coups against his royal power (usually good for the common folk).
He also kept his lands safe for quite some time through a successful and agressive foreign policy against the main threat to Wallachia, the Ottomans.
On top of that he favoured local commerce, by shutting the Saxon merchants, formerly having a virtual monopoly, out of his kingdom.

That last bit about the Saxon merchants seems to be what made his reputation as a monster.
The Ottomans might have thought so too of course, and his ally king Mathias Corvinus of Hungary may have found him to be trouble personally, but what really did his reputation in was when the Germans started printing popular propaganda pamphlets, richly illustrated with gruesome woodcuts, detailing his monstrosity.

 

[Shaihulud]

Maybe because he is a popular figure from their country that is easily identifiable all over the World? The only form of recognition they can get from everyone anywhere. Even if he is a monster, he is their monster and therefore acceptable.

 

[Evil Tyrant]

I'm not Romanian, but I still use him as my avatar.
The reason I think he is popular is because while he was a cruel and bloodthirsty leader, he was patriotic and just(sort of). He defended his lands against the Muslim Ottoman Turks, drove out foreign merchants, insisted on absolute honesty, and executed dishonest merchants. His killing of the Boyars was probably for the best. The Boyars first murdered his father and brother, then they tryed to usurp his throne. They were also more inclined to look out more for their own interests than those of Wallachia. The reason he killed the Hungarian police officer was because the officer had entered his house without permission, which gentlemen of the time did not do, even if they are persuing thieves.

 

[Der Sensenmann]

Vlad Tepes was actually more of an opportunist than a patriot. Yes, he fought the invading Turks, but on other occasions he kowtowed to them if it benefited him in other ways (ie, support against Hungarian interference). He was a regular politician all right.

OT: Why is Count Dracula a Hungarian in Stoker's book? That's really odd.

 

[Verbose]

OT: Why is Count Dracula a Hungarian in Stoker's book? That's really odd.

'Cause Transylvania is full of Hungarians, among others, and Stoker wasn't too savvy about Romanian history?

 

[jeriko one]

There is also the same problem in Turkey. Attila, Genghis Khan and Temur are seen as heroes in Turkey. They murdered many thousands, pillaged and destroyed cities. The strange thing is about Temur. He destroyed Sivas which had a population of 60.000, defeated the Turks and was the reason behind I.Bayezid`s death. How can he be a hero???

 

[Abaddon]

Could be be because he killed all those that didnt like him? Ang its had some wierd long lasting effect of Romanias gene pool so that people are predisposed to like him? :crazy:

 

[fing0lfin]

I have noticed that many romanians in CFC use Vlad Tepes (more known through the figure whose creation he inspired, count Dracula) in their avatar, or in their signature. Also the romanian consular in Thessalonike has written a biography of Vlad Tepes, and portrays him as a national hero. However it is certain that Vlad the Impaler was one very dark historical figure, who killed personally, or had killed, hundreds of people, and not at all always due to war. For example he killed even a police officer in the kingdom of Hungary, for petty reasons, and then he organised large scale murders of non romanian boyars.

A similar- although not so murderous apart from during an actual war- figure in greek history would be the famous byzantine emperor Basileios II, more known as Basil II the slayer of Bulgars. However greek fascination with Basil II is nowhere near the level that romanians appear to have for Vlad Tepes, and i was curious as to the reasons for that. Basil II is at any rate seen as the strongest of the second era of byzantine emperors (at the time of his death, in the beginning of the 11th century AD, the byzantine empire was clearly the strongest kingdom in europe and the middle east, and propably only couldbe compared with China in overall power) and he was victorious in the war against the arabs, managed to secure southern Italy for the empire, and utterly crushed the bulgarians in the war against Czar Symeon. Famous also for the total war tactics he deployed, he had ordered 99 out of every 100 bulgarian prissoners to be blinded, and left the 100th with only one eye so that he could lead the rest of his group back to Czar Symeon.

Most probably in Romanian history there arent many leaders who were so famous as Vlad tepes, and that would be the main reason for his popularity, but still it can be seen as a bit troubling too i think

It's the Bulgarian king Samuil, not Symeon

I will tell one story from Vlad Dracula. He loved his wife very much. But when he was hunting, the turks took her away and killed her. When he got back to his castle and understood what happend, he got mad. We gathered an army and fought with the Turks. He won. He ordered his soldiers, to cut the head of every turkish soldier-dead or captured- and to put it on a spike. There were so many killed, that looked from away, it looked like forest, but when people got closer they were terrified by the look.

 

[fing0lfin]

There is also the same problem in Turkey. Attila, Genghis Khan and Temur are seen as heroes in Turkey. They murdered many thousands, pillaged and destroyed cities. The strange thing is about Temur. He destroyed Sivas which had a population of 60.000, defeated the Turks and was the reason behind I.Bayezid`s death. How can he be a hero???

Why not a hero ? Everybody smahed the ottoman turks is a hero for me.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

We can safely say he was not out of touch with the 'spirit of the time'. He was bloody, but there were bloody times. Well, persecuting German merchants back then would be like picking on CNN today - everybody hears about it, over and over And like all press, you are bound to get 'fair and ballanced' reports.

There is a level of reverence for Vlad Tepes in Romania, but I wouldn't say it's an obsession. Mostly, he is seen to have defeated the Turks and having created some sort of stability in Wallachia. But the 'myth' was born during the nationalistic days of the late 19th, early 20th century. And it was also useful for the Communists, who were trying to depict the necessity of a strong hand in power (Vlad was as a good archetype).

As for the Dracula worship, I haven't met many Romanians here, and neither had a Vlad avatar. Must be they don't hang out in OT... And a group of 2-3 is hardly significant.

 

[Kyriakos]

It's the Bulgarian king Samuil, not Symeon

You are right... I even named the bulgarian city series i made as Czar Symeon

 

[Evil Tyrant]

Could be be because he killed all those that didnt like him? Ang its had some wierd long lasting effect of Romanias gene pool so that people are predisposed to like him? :crazy:

He died in battle against the Ottoman Turks, it is not really known who killed him, either Ottoman soldiers or his own men mistaking him for a Turk because he was disguised in a Turkish uniform(the battle was some sort of ambush).

 

[Evil Tyrant]

Vlad Tepes was actually more of an opportunist than a patriot. Yes, he fought the invading Turks, but on other occasions he kowtowed to them if it benefited him in other ways (ie, support against Hungarian interference). He was a regular politician all right.

That could be interpreted as him trying to maintain Wallachian independence when ringed by two hostile nations.

They said that he thought only of himself. Bah! What good are peasants
without a leader? Where ends the war without a brain and heart
to conduct it?

OT: Why is Count Dracula a Hungarian in Stoker's book? That's really odd.

Reading the book, Dracula seems to be of a related tribe that migrated earlier than the Hungarians and intermarried with the Huns. When the Magyars conqered the place they recognised the Draculas as relatives and put them in charge of guarding the southern border. Here is another excerpt from the book.

"We Szekelys have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood
of many brave races who fought as the lion fights, for lordship.
Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down
from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Wodin game them,
which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards
of Europe, aye, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought
that the werewolves themselves had come. Here, too, when they came,
they found the Huns, whose warlike fury had swept the earth like a
living flame, till the dying peoples held that in their veins ran
the blood of those old witches, who, expelled from Scythia had mated
with the devils in the desert. Fools, fools! What devil or what
witch was ever so great as Attila, whose blood is in these veins?"
He held up his arms. "Is it a wonder that we were a conquering race,
that we were proud, that when the Magyar, the Lombard, the Avar, the Bulgar,
or the Turk poured his thousands on our frontiers, we drove them back?
Is it strange that when Arpad and his legions swept through the Hungarian
fatherland he found us here when he reached the frontier, that the Honfoglalas
was completed there? And when the Hungarian flood swept eastward,
the Szekelys were claimed as kindred by the victorious Magyars, and to us
for centuries was trusted the guarding of the frontier of Turkeyland.

 

[Der Sensenmann]

That could be interpreted as him trying to maintain Wallachian independence when ringed by two hostile nations.

Of course it could, but it still suggests that Tepes was more of a pragmatist than romantic nationalist.

Reading the book, Dracula seems to be of a related tribe that migrated earlier than the Hungarians and intermarried with the Huns. When the Magyars conqered the place they recognised the Draculas as relatives and put them in charge of guarding the southern border.

That's the Szeklers' own view about their own origins, and yes, rereading the book that is shown to have been the fictional Dracula's nationality. However, historical and anthropological consensus generally considers the Szeklers to be Magyars that were resettled by the early Hungarian kings to guard the east Carpathians. Their language is a dialect of Hungarian and they have identified with the Magyars for most of the time.

 

[jeriko one]

Why not a hero ? Everybody smahed the ottoman turks is a hero for me.

But you do not count someone a hero when they smash Bulgarians don`t you? In Turkey this is the problem glorifying someone who showed butality to your own kind.

 

[fing0lfin]

But you do not count someone a hero when they smash Bulgarians don`t you? In Turkey this is the problem glorifying someone who showed butality to your own kind.

Not really...For example someone who killed dirty Bulgarian communists or national traitor, is a hero.

 

[manlyboy]

I agree with Aphex Twin. They were brutal times, and even in that era, Wallachia was considered a backwards land.

It's just so hard to NOT find the man compelling, homocidally deranged as he was. Eating his meals surrounded by impaled corpses. Dipping his bread in bowls of their blood. Impaling the Polish nobleman who couldn't stand the stench, and then remarking to him that he hoped the air was fresher up there. Nailing the Ottoman messengers hats to their heads because they wouldn't remove them in his presence. Placing unguarded gold cups in his town centres as a monument to the fear he inspired in all. It's hard to even dream up a character like that.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

manlyboy:

You do realize some of that is legend, do you?

 

[Evil Tyrant]

It's just so hard to NOT find the man compelling, homocidally deranged as he was. Eating his meals surrounded by impaled corpses. Dipping his bread in bowls of their blood.

Quite true, those were the actions of a homicidal maniac.

Impaling the Polish nobleman who couldn't stand the stench, and then remarking to him that he hoped the air was fresher up there.

To be a stickler for accuracy he did this to one of his own Boyars, the Polish nobleman is featured in this story.

The Polish Nobleman
Benedict de Boithor, a Polish nobleman in the service of the King of Hungary, visited Vlad Dracula at Tirgoviste in September of 1458. At dinner one evening Vlad ordered a golden spear brought and set up directly in front of the royal envoy. Vlad then asked the envoy if he knew why this spear had been set up. Benedict replied that he imagined some boyar had offended the prince and that Vlad intended to honor him. Vlad responded that the spear had, in fact, been set up in honor of his noble, Polish guest. The Pole then responded that if he had done anything to deserve death that Vlad should do as he thought best. Vlad Dracula was greatly pleased by this answer, showered him with gifts, and declared that had he answered in any other manner he would have been immediately impaled.

Nailing the Ottoman messengers hats to their heads because they wouldn't remove them in his presence. Placing unguarded gold cups in his town centres as a monument to the fear he inspired in all. It's hard to even dream up a character like that.

He nailed the hats to the heads of the Ottoman ambassadors because their refusal to remove their hats in his presence was an insult, and did not show him the respect he was owed as Voivode of Wallachia. The golden cup was to show the effectiveness of his policy of impaling any criminals. It was never stolen during his entire reign, even though no guards were placed to protect it.