Why Must Resources Deplete???

[psweetman1590]

I tend to think in terms of quantity.

You can find traces of Iron almost anywhere. In absolute terms, there are very few places were there is not enough iron for whatever use you might have for it. The question is, is it easy to get at, and is it concentrated? One could sift through the rocks and soil and find iron... but that takes a looong time, is inefficient, and who's going to bother spending their days doing that?

Well, the answer is, a scientist might. A man (or woman) with a passion for alchemy or some such thing might get a hold of a small amount of whatever resource we're talking about. From that small sample, (s)he can perform some experiments, determine its properties, and find uses for it. (S)He can then show government officials and explain how such a material might be used. This can be done without a large deposit of Iron, or Uranium, or saltpeter, or whatever. BUT to equip troops, you'll need A LOT of whatever substance you just discovered the usefulness of. Want to equip a horseman unit? You'll need not one, or two, or three horses, but as many thousands. Want to give your soldiers iron blades instead of those old flint axes? You're going to need more than the several handfulls you used to discover iron's properties - you'll need a large deposit that can be easily mined and extracted. So it applies for all resources.

Just because there's no iron in your territory doesn't mean there's NO IRON at all. What it means is that there is not enough in accesible locations to have large-scale extraction that would be necessary for wide-spread use as it's modelled in civ terms.

 

[ecuwins]

Maybe this is why saltpeter is not needed once the industrial age hits - we have learned to make it or something. We have also learned to make rubber but it is needed all the way up to modern armor, hmmm. What is the rationale for not needing saltpeter after the IA starts? I would think infantry, artillery, tanks, and boats would need it for their gunpowder.

 

[psweetman1590]

in the industrial age, saltpeter can be manufactured. When it comes to rubber... well, the Germans invented artificial rubber in WWI... I suppose that they just needed a new resource to put in the game in that period, and rubber was the best choice. historically speaking, natural rubber had a very short timefram as a "vital" resource, as artificial rubber was invented even before armies became mechanized.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

I don't think that saltpeter was much used after the industrial at all. Feel free to correct me, but I've heard that compressed flammable gasses (sp?) were used in bullets. Rubber was synthesized almost as it was discovered, because it was a rather simple substance to make.

 

[ecuwins]

Ok, I just looked it up, duh. During the industrial age people learned to 'grow?' saltpeter -- so magic, I get it. Still don't know why rubber is needed all the way to the end but I guess it is just a game as psweetman1590 said.

 

[Marsden]

I tend to think in terms of quantity.

You can find traces of Iron almost anywhere. In absolute terms, there are very few places were there is not enough iron for whatever use you might have for it. The question is, is it easy to get at, and is it concentrated? One could sift through the rocks and soil and find iron... but that takes a looong time, is inefficient, and who's going to bother spending their days doing that?

Well, the answer is, a scientist might. A man (or woman) with a passion for alchemy or some such thing might get a hold of a small amount of whatever resource we're talking about. From that small sample, (s)he can perform some experiments, determine its properties, and find uses for it. (S)He can then show government officials and explain how such a material might be used. This can be done without a large deposit of Iron, or Uranium, or saltpeter, or whatever. BUT to equip troops, you'll need A LOT of whatever substance you just discovered the usefulness of. Want to equip a horseman unit? You'll need not one, or two, or three horses, but as many thousands. Want to give your soldiers iron blades instead of those old flint axes? You're going to need more than the several handfulls you used to discover iron's properties - you'll need a large deposit that can be easily mined and extracted. So it applies for all resources.

Just because there's no iron in your territory doesn't mean there's NO IRON at all. What it means is that there is not enough in accesible locations to have large-scale extraction that would be necessary for wide-spread use as it's modelled in civ terms.

Well, reading this I certainly feel better about not needing iron for tanks or even musketeers. I complained about the tanks being made out of oil and rubber and Padma amoung others said that at that time iron is ubiquitous and not necessary, your post makes that plausable for me, now. Plus, it's a game, our game. I'm sure we've all put more thought, effort and devotion to this game than any of the designers or makers. Rubber is the little known 3rd required resource (aluminum and uranium get all the glory, try building a spaceship casing without rubber) for the spaceship as well, so don't forget that, I think it edges out oil for most important late industrial resource.

Realism is something that must be put into perspective.

Psweetman and Charles 22 among others had an entertaining discussion about the realism of stacking workers to do things in 1 turn and other things that might not be "realistic" For all arguments of realism I will now answer this, (I hadn't thought of it at the time): Show me any place in real life or history that a ruler rules for 6050 years and we can discuss it further, otherwise stop playing the realistic card, it doesn't really matter here.

 

[anaxagoras]

[H]istorically speaking, natural rubber had a very short timefram as a "vital" resource, as artificial rubber was invented even before armies became mechanized.

Artificial rubber was invented early on, it is true, but it didn't go into large scale use and production until late in WWII, when a concerted U.S. effort discovered an artificial rubber formula that was easy and relatively inexpensive to produce. Even today, natural rubber still accounts for 40% of worldwide rubber consumption, so it is still an important resource, though it is no longer a strategically vital as it was then.

Still, the game had to limit the use of modern armor somehow, so this is as good a way as any. Think of it as a representation of manufacturing ability.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

@Marsden

I think oil is more important, because with oil bombers are possible, and you can just bomb the enemy to pieces, instead of having to use ground infantry to attack. Read this article and see why attackers can easily get wiped out by artillery. Scroll about halfway down to the killzone part.

 

[Bllasae]

They get used up because nothing lasts forever(besides pollution lol).
Also, it states here that saltpeter was grown by people:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate#Manufacture

 

[Optional]

What is not hooked up cannot deplete.

Sorry for my icredibly late reply, but it's only a couple of days ago that I came across the following statement in the help section of the editor, where the disappearance ratio is explained:
'Note that this value is not influenced by use; a resource can disappear even if a civilization has never used the resource'.

 

[MAS]

Sorry for my icredibly late reply, but it's only a couple of days ago that I came across the following statement in the help section of the editor, where the disappearance ratio is explained:
'Note that this value is not influenced by use; a resource can disappear even if a civilization has never used the resource'.

"used" in this case, means that you build any units that require the resource.

So, in the AA, Iron can disappear, even if you never build any swordsman.

If you don't have the tech to see iron, it counts as not being hooked up, even if the tile that hides the iron already has a road.

Not being hooked up means it can't disappear.

 

[Red Horse]

"used" in this case, means that you build any units that require the resource.

So, in the AA, Iron can disappear, even if you never build any swordsman.

If you don't have the tech to see iron, it counts as not being hooked up, even if the tile that hides the iron already has a road.

Not being hooked up means it can't disappear.

Hmmmm.
The way I read the line that Optional quoted, I would believe depletion is purely random regardless of whether that resource was ever hooked up or not.
So now the question is:
Has anyone ever noticed a resource deplete that they had been saving and had not hooked up?

 

[Optional]

I suppose anyone would at first interpret that line the way you did, Red Horse, at least I did, but I know that the technical knowledge of the game that guys like MAS and Lord Emsworth have is quite extensive, so I very much doubt whether anyone would be able to come up with such an example.

 

[anaxagoras]

Hmmmm.
The way I read the line that Optional quoted, I would believe depletion is purely random regardless of whether that resource was ever hooked up or not.
So now the question is:
Has anyone ever noticed a resource deplete that they had been saving and had not hooked up?

No. MAS is correct, as usual. The game checks to see if a resource is eligible for use by anyone (i.e. appears in the resource list of any city), and then does a depletion check. It does not check for resource use in unit builds (which would be too complicated to code).

Edit: X-post with Optional.