Why no Great Philosophers?

[Saim]

I think Great Philosophers should really be in the Civ series; not having great philosophers like Marx, Aristotle, Plato, etc. in the great person list isn't very good. We also need more great people in the great person list... the list is surprisingly short. Most of the great people are common knowledge, there's no reason not to have obscure great people, since all it takes is a few words.

And for that matter, Great Explorers would be pretty good as well. Zheng He, Zhou Daguan, Columbus, Marco Polo and Cook are just a few possiblities for a great explorer list.

The Great Leader from Civ Revolution should also be in ordinary civ games, if they're any good.

And yes, there would be overlaps, but if you get one name for a certain type of great person, you wouldn't be able to get the same name for a different great person. You'd need to change the structure of the XML, but it could work.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

They are already in, but they tend to fall under prophets (or scientists) and merchants.

 

[Saim]

How the hell are philosophers prophets, scientists or merchants? OK, maybe scientists, but seriously...

 

[generalawal]

How the hell are philosophers prophets, scientists or merchants? OK, maybe scientists, but seriously...

From Wikipedia: Philosophy is the discipline concerned with questions of how one should live (ethics); what sorts of things exist and what are their essential natures (metaphysics); what counts as genuine knowledge (epistemology); and what are the correct principles of reasoning (logic).

Philosophy typically has either a religious or scientific bent, wouldn't you agree? Basically, for a long time in Europe philosophy had a hugely religious bent (i.e. the Bible is the basis for ethics, the Bible tells us what the nature of the universe is, etc.)... so putting some great philosophers under Great Prophets is appropriate.

And then there's the type of philosophy basically grounded in science, rationality, reason, etc. This is what a lot of the Greeks thought about, and later on Descartes and others. Typically, these people were also scientists: Descartes, the 'father of modern philosophy,' was also a brilliant and innovative mathematician. So, again, I think the rest of the great philosophers would go fine under Great Scientists.

I'm sure some philosophers could fit under other categories, though. Philosophy is a discipline that anyone can do, you just have to ... think. Identifying what a particular Great Person was primarily involved with -- other than philosophy -- would probably suffice for determining what category they should be put into.

And I'd want regular explorers to be useful before we implement a Great version of them.

But I'd also like to see some more flavor with GPs. The 'ethnic GP names' mod that's around here somewhere is a good start.

 

[IbnKhaldun]

While I don't really see the NEED for a Great Philosopher, I think it would be pretty neato!
However, I do consider it a joke that the game does not include Karl Marx, among many other great philosophical minds. Call them Scientists, Economists or whatever... just get them in the game.

 

[Crezth]

Not to mention, several Great Explorers could be classified as Great Merchants and the like. I know for a fact Marco Polo is a Great Merchant.

 

[Ethric]

Yeah, because many great explorers had a reason for their exploring: to boldly go where there might be profit

 

[Spiceweasel]

It's only been in recent history that philosophy and science have been considered different disciplines. What we now call science was, in Newton's time, called "natural philosophy".

Anyway, trying to add a new type of great person comes with the burden of figuring out what it can actually do for the player. Sure, there are techs you could add to the lightbulb list, and there's golden ages. But what else?

Then too, they'd need to refactor all of the wonders so that some of them give Great Philosopher points. And they'd need to add Philosopher specialists. And they'd have to figure out which buildings support philosopher specialists.

I think they've got enough types of great people for now.

 

[Pikkis]

I've been thinking Great Explorer idea too. As a great specialist it could maybe provide +3 gold, +3 research and +6 espionage. That way it would be a little better than other GP types, but also very rare. Thoughts? Harbor at least could allow Explorer specialists (with +1 gold, +1 research and +2 espionage), don't know about other. There would also be need for a NW that gives trade route bonus and allows 3 more Explorer specialists. No idea what World Wonder(s) could provide Great Explorer points, maybe there would be need for some monuments dedicated to explorers and statesmen supporting them?

 

[GuitarHero]

A great Philosopher is a good idea, but I think Great Explorers are a rotten idea.

 

[Jerrymander]

A great Philosopher is a good idea, but I think Great Explorers are a rotten idea.

Why so? I think Explorers would be cool.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

How would you make a great explorer though. By running explorer specialists in a city? Shouldn't they be out exploring?

 

[Gooblah]

If a Recon Unit hits a certain EXP level, give it a "Great Explorer" promotion. IT'll have 5 sight range, the equivalent of Woodsman III and Guerrilla III, and can enter other Civs without OB signed. I guess it would be like a Great Spy though...

 

[GuitarHero]

We've got to think of what they'd do. Philosophers could grant free specialists or make a Unique building.

 

[kingworldss]

Yes,Explorers would be cool.

 

[Pikkis]

How would you make a great explorer though. By running explorer specialists in a city? Shouldn't they be out exploring?

And shouldn't spies be out there spying?

I think that Great Explorers would be good addition, just like Great Spies were.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Anyway, trying to add a new type of great person comes with the burden of figuring out what it can actually do for the player. Sure, there are techs you could add to the lightbulb list, and there's golden ages. But what else?

Then too, they'd need to refactor all of the wonders so that some of them give Great Philosopher points. And they'd need to add Philosopher specialists. And they'd have to figure out which buildings support philosopher specialists.

I think they've got enough types of great people for now.

Exactly. And what would a philosopher specialist do that another specialist doesn't do already? I guess it would be half artist/half scientist (+2, +2).

 

[aronnax]

And shouldn't spies be out there spying?

I think that Great Explorers would be good addition, just like Great Spies were.

You can spy in a city... You know, intelligent reports on rebels, secret police that sort of thing

 

[Pikkis]

You can spy in a city... You know, intelligent reports on rebels, secret police that sort of thing

Yes, but importance of that isn't even near the importance of spying outside nation borders, I think. Also, secret police is somehow connected to Police State in the game, so neglecting rebel reports, spy specialists should only be available to civs running Police State based on your opinion. And why do they then provide espionage points against other nations instead of helping evaid slave revolts etc. (rebel reports)? I only tried to say that if there's so huge importance of Spy specialists in the game, there could be Explorer specialists too, I think.

 

[Spiceweasel]

Yes, but importance of that isn't even near the importance of spying outside nation borders, I think. Also, secret police is somehow connected to Police State in the game, so neglecting rebel reports, spy specialists should only be available to civs running Police State based on your opinion. And why do they then provide espionage points against other nations instead of helping evaid slave revolts etc. (rebel reports)? I only tried to say that if there's so huge importance of Spy specialists in the game, there could be Explorer specialists too, I think.

I don't think that's true. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that "signals intelligence" is the bulk of what real spy work is about: Reading newspapers, intercepting radio transmissions and tapping phone calls, subpoenaing search message board records ( ), etc. For every 1 James Bond out there, there are probably 10 mathematicians and 500 translators sitting comfortably at desks in their own country.