Why no Hitler?

[budweiser]

AH was very industrious. He had many large scale construction projects in the works for germany which were never completed because of the war. He was also aggresive and charismatic. I’m torn about what to choose.

Personnally, I dont think Stalin is labled correctly as aggressive. His post war policies were all about protecting the Soviet borders and preveting a third invasion of Russia from europe in less than 50 years. I dont think russian troops from that era necessariy should start with an extra promotion given the huge losses they took in WWII. Industrious and protective fit better for him, leaving industrious aggresive open for AH.

While I am thinking about it, Louis XIV was very aggresive. He fought multiple wars aimed at expanding french territory. He should be Aggresvie and Creative. Oh, wait that’s Kublai Khan.

 

[bovinespy]

AH was very industrious. He had many large scale construction projects in the works for germany which were never completed....

Well, that's kind of the rub, isn't it? I'm well aware of his and Albert Speer's plans for urban reconstruction on a massive scale, but that's all they were - plans. Far as I see it, no real great works = no Industrious trait.

I agree with you, though, about Stalin (Ind/Pro) and Louis XIV (Agg/Cre). You could always change Kublai to Imp/Cre.

 

[drkodos]

This thread seems fitting to unveil my new trait, fitting for some of the leaders being discussed:

Oppressive. Each tile generates 1 extra hammer. -1 Happiness in all cities. Temples are 2x Production cost.

 

[Crighton]

This thread seems fitting to unveil my new trait, fitting for some of the leaders being discussed:

Oppressive. Each tile generates 1 extra hammer. -1 Happiness in all cities. Temples are 2x Production cost.

Nice.

Submit that one to the modders would make things more interesting

 

[SpartanEvolved]

Must be hard for Firaxis to choose. Many of the leaders fit multiple traits. Aggresive describes life half of the leaders in the game.

 

[Dominico]

You mean like Napoleon? But seriously, German forces were outnumbered and outgunned when they smashed the British and French in 6 weeks - due largely to superior training, organization, and planning. As far as 'massive build-ups' go, check out the history of Operation Marita (invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece) sometime.

Hmmm always annoys me when history gets twisted. The British and French were outnumbered when Germany attacked in 1941

Germany had 134 Divisions Britain 10 Divisions France 94 Divisions.

Equipment amounts were also similar in their bias towards Germany.

Hitler should not be in as he was not a great leader. The economy of Germany was built on weapons building and forced labour something which could only sustain it if it attacked other countries as was his aim. It was not a long term plan and would have never made Germany economically powerful in the long term. Also Hitler did not mean to bring Britain into the war, and infact offered her peace after defeating Poland so im not so sure he should get aggressive, he sort of bumbled into a world war by pushing too far with his diplomatic games of chicken which had worked before for him.

I think he should get some bonus to diplomacy since he seemed to be an good diplomat and able to trick many leaders, make his deals more likely to work. Charismatic bonusus too! But since he was a massive turd he gets a no vote from me!!!

 

[eric_]

Oh, wait, didn't he lose the war? How many of the Civ leaders lost MAJOR wars?

 

[Thedrin]

Well, that's kind of the rub, isn't it? I'm well aware of his and Albert Speer's plans for urban reconstruction on a massive scale, but that's all they were - plans. Far as I see it, no real great works = no Industrious trait.

Hitler was all about the grand project fo the glory of the people. That many projects ceased with the end of the war is not because he was not into large scale works. It's because invading forces didn't really see a need to satisfy Hitler's ego or his social agenda. That invasion interupted his plans would surely be more of an arguement against giving him military traits.

 

[SpartanEvolved]

Frederick, also a German leader, lost a major war. Read the Civilopedia. If Peter III hadn't became tsar, who knows what could have happened?

Monty also lost not only a war, but under him his entire civilization collapsed.

Capac also left his empire in such a poor state it broke out into civil war, and then the Spanish destroyed them.

Napoleon, though very succesful militarily, lost in the end.

Hannibal lost a series of wars that destroyed his country completely.

There may be more examples, but those are proof enough military failure does not exclude a leader from the Civilization series.

 

[bovinespy]

Hmmm always annoys me when history gets twisted. The British and French were outnumbered when Germany attacked in 1941

Germany had 134 Divisions Britain 10 Divisions France 94 Divisions.

Equipment amounts were also similar in their bias towards Germany.

From p. 477, Strange Victory: Hitler's Conquest of France, Ernest R. May, 2000:

Overall Balance of Forces, May 10, 1940:

# of Divisions - German = 135; Allied (French, British, Belgian, Dutch) = 152
# of Tanks - German = 2,439; Allied = 4,204
# of Bombers and Fighters - German = 3,369; Allied = 4,981
# of Heavy Artillery - German = 7,378; Allied = 13,974

Hitler should not be in as he was not a great leader. The economy of Germany was built on weapons building and forced labour something which could only sustain it if it attacked other countries as was his aim. It was not a long term plan and would have never made Germany economically powerful in the long term. Also Hitler did not mean to bring Britain into the war, and infact offered her peace after defeating Poland so im not so sure he should get aggressive, he sort of bumbled into a world war by pushing too far with his diplomatic games of chicken which had worked before for him.

I think he should get some bonus to diplomacy since he seemed to be an good diplomat and able to trick many leaders, make his deals more likely to work. Charismatic bonusus too! But since he was a massive turd he gets a no vote from me!!!

As I've stated before, I don't care if he's in the game or not.

I agree with your points about the unstable and unsustainable nature of Hitler's economy, and also about trying to avoid war with Britain - but that's because of his Aggressive designs for Lebensraum in Eastern Europe! Kind of makes the point for me about Adolf having the Agg trait. I also agree with you on Charismatic (one of 1st politicians to wage highly-organized modern mass media political campaigns), though I heartily concur on his 'massive turd' status! :thumbdown

 

[SpartanEvolved]

The only reason he isn't and likely won't be in a Civ game is because the European market would not recieve it well at all. Maybe, just maybe, in the future, when everyone who experienced his atrocities have passed away, he will be in one.

Odds are, he will end up like Napoleon or Ghengis Khan. Feared while he is around, hated after he is gone, but eventually remembered as a great leader and conqueror.

 

[MNGhost]

The only reason he isn't and likely won't be in a Civ game is because the European market would not recieve it well at all. Maybe, just maybe, in the future, when everyone who experienced his atrocities have passed away, he will be in one.

Odds are, he will end up like Napoleon or Ghengis Khan. Feared while he is around, hated after he is gone, but eventually remembered as a great leader and conqueror.

Some great leader. Sure, he helped revive the German economy for a short time, but mostly through a military build up that could not sustain itself. And then, in just 13 short years (so much for his 1000 Year Reich), he left the country in a worse state than how it was when he came to power. What little he accomplished was built on a platform of the lowest common denominator of human nature, and his only lasting legacy are a small smattering hateful neo-Nazi cells whose views are condemned by civil society (as they should be) and the fading memories of one of the darkest times in modern Western history.

 

[Thedrin]

The only reason he isn't and likely won't be in a Civ game is because the European market would not recieve it well at all. Maybe, just maybe, in the future, when everyone who experienced his atrocities have passed away, he will be in one.

That and Bismarck and Frederick were both far greater leaders. I'd put Barbarossa in ahead of Hitler as well.

 

[TylerDurdon]

If I said the name Ragnar to people, they might not know who he is....but if I said Adolf Hitler....you get the point....everyone knows the guy, he had a HUGE impact on moden society, he started WWII, and what....he's NOT in CivIV????

Churchill, Stalin, and Roosevelt "The Big 3" are here, who all were in WWII era, but why isn't Hitler in CivIV?

Is it becuse people would want him to hold a potentially deadly Agg/Chrismatic combo? Is it because he is possibly too offensive to some people, and seeing a cartoon version of him stareing at them make them **** their pants?

Its a debate they had here for quite some time.... but I think it politically incorrect for normal people to see young people play as Hitler and rage war with him!!!!

But I agree that he *may* be included!!!(maybe in a mod) I wouldnt be offended and i would take some pleasure beating him up a little!!! I think people are scared that some columbine (or here in Montreal Kimveer Hill) wackos just go berserk and je*k off while blowing up and exterminate races!!!

In the other hand if he stay Taboo for enough a long time, its a real DANGER that we forget about him and somehow allow another one like him!!! Which could be even worst than talking about it!

 

[Barney's_Soul]

Oh, wait, didn't he lose the war? How many of the Civ leaders lost MAJOR wars?

Napoleon Bonaparte.

 

[TM Moot]

Still seems odd having Stalin in the game and not Hitler (esp. with Panzers as the German UU)....

I know AH was Austrian, but Uncle Joe wasn't Russian either.

Best to include or exclude them both. Could always have Lenin and Kaiser Bill instead.

 

[Charles 22]

I find it rather ironic that the reasoning for keeping Hitler out of the game, didn't prevail all that well, afterall, there's at least two quotes by him in it. If he's such a problem for the german market, then why the quotes?

 

[IdiotWind]

I bet it's just a pure marketing decision.

# people who would get offended and boycott the game >
# people who would buy the game because Hitler is in it

In a nutshell

Everything else is pure academia

 

[eric_]

Hehehehe... I knew about all of those leaders major losses. I'm not gonna say "what was I thinking," because clearly I wasn't thinking at all...

 

[GIO888]

CivDude86 has the juice - why "ooh" and "aah" and "yes" and "no" when there's a MOD?

Download the MOD, or don't. Your choice!