Why no Hitler?

[blitzkrieg1980]

...he sort of bumbled into a world war by pushing too far with his diplomatic games of chicken which had worked before for him.

I don't know, man, it seems like aligning with Japan (who was taking over China), invading Northern Africa, and taking over most of Western Europe (Netherlands, Poland, Luxemburg, Belgium, France, Austria) doesn't sound like bumbling into a world war. It sounds like creating one. Maybe he bumbled into a war with England and the U.S., but he certainly didn't accidentally bump things up to World War level.

 

[Pogel]

I belive that Germany has some strong legislation that restricts usage of Hitler and Nazi symbolism in things like computer games. Having Hitler in the game could shut the game out of a major market - it's a business decision.

re: the possible traits, is there any argument for Hitler having the Philosophical trait? I'm not a huge history buff but it strikes me that Naziism and it's role in WW2 was idealogical and philosophical in nature (as opposed to, say, religious or financial). Isn't "Mein Kampf" a philosophical and political work?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I belive that Germany has some strong legislation that restricts usage of Hitler and Nazi symbolism in things like computer games. Having Hitler in the game could shut the game out of a major market - it's a business decision.

re: the possible traits, is there any argument for Hitler having the Philosophical trait? I'm not a huge history buff but it strikes me that Naziism and it's role in WW2 was idealogical and philosophical in nature (as opposed to, say, religious or financial). Isn't "Mein Kampf" a philosophical and political work?

The points you raise are true, but in the game, PHI leaders really only effect how fast great people emerge. Since Hitler really didn't cause the emergence of many great people, PHI might not apply as much to him. Well, not as much as AGG or CHM would.

 

[the_elf]

This thread seems fitting to unveil my new trait, fitting for some of the leaders being discussed:

Oppressive. Each tile generates 1 extra hammer. -1 Happiness in all cities. Temples are 2x Production cost.

So, then...Hitler would be Oppressive and Aggresive?

Man, +1 hammer on every tile. That would be huge! Water tiles, too?

 

[bovinespy]

The points you raise are true, but in the game, PHI leaders really only effect how fast great people emerge. Since Hitler really didn't cause the emergence of many great people, PHI might not apply as much to him. Well, not as much as AGG or CHM would.

As a matter of fact, you could almost say AH was anti-Phi, as he caused Great People to disappear (Albert Einstein anyone? )...

 

[Stexe]

If I said the name Ragnar to people, they might not know who he is....but if I said Adolf Hitler....you get the point....everyone knows the guy, he had a HUGE impact on moden society, he started WWII, and what....he's NOT in CivIV????

Churchill, Stalin, and Roosevelt "The Big 3" are here, who all were in WWII era, but why isn't Hitler in CivIV?

Is it becuse people would want him to hold a potentially deadly Agg/Chrismatic combo? Is it because he is possibly too offensive to some people, and seeing a cartoon version of him stareing at them make them **** their pants?

I'll say it again quickly. Basically, Firaxis wanted to sell Civ in Germany which boycots anything related to the Nazi reign, a.k.a. Hitler. The Aggressive Charismatic trait is not THAT over powered. There is someone with it already even though it is only in a scenario. The only truly over powered trait I can think of is Industrious and Philosophical. While Hitler did improve the German economy (Financal) and brought about an industrial revolution (Industrious) he was far more Aggressive in my opinion. It is silly that Firaxis left him out just to sell games to Germany (they could have made a special non-Hitler version for Germany), but that's how companies work.

 

[drkodos]

So, then...Hitler would be Oppressive and Aggresive?

Man, +1 hammer on every tile. That would be huge! Water tiles, too?

I was thinking more that Stalin was oppresive. Size of the Russian Army? They managed to LOSE 10 million soldiers during WW2 and still win.

Maybe have to balance Opression by making Civic switches cause 2x time for periods for anarchy.

It is silly that Firaxis left him out just to sell games to Germany (they could have made a special non-Hitler version for Germany), but that's how companies work.

I believe it is a bit deeper than that.

 

[biratets]

This has been discussed a million times before. The answer to this question is of course that the makers of the game want to be politically correct and avoid any possible trouble (+sell more). What I cant understand is why they put Stalin in the game if they want to be PC.

Why people even today can't play a computer game with AH in it is beyond me.

But if you were to put him into the game (besides losing out on the ENTIRE European market)

You must mean loosing the German market. Not European market.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I think (in a previous thread about this) a German poster said that anything with a Swastika on it is not legal for sale . I'm pretty sure that Germans are required to acknowledge the Nazis and Hitler. If he's not in their history books, then something is seriously wrong with the education system over there. So, using the assumption that he is in their text books, we can assume that products bearing his name and the Nazi party can be sold in Germany, but without the Swastikas (I guess )

 

[the_elf]

I believe the answers may be found here:

Wikipedia: Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesprüfstelle_für_jugendgefährdende_Medien

Answers.com: Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien
http://www.answers.com/topic/bundespr-fstelle-f-r-jugendgef-hrdende-medien

Answers.com highlights:

Under § 15 Paragraph 2 JSchG, certain types of content are subject to restricted distribution by virtue of the law on account of their obvious harm to young people, without the need to add them to the Index. These include:

* content which is proscribed by the criminal law such as Volksverhetzung (incitement to hate or violence against a group of people), instructions on how to commit crime, glorification or trivialization of violence, incitement to racial hatred and pornography.
* content which glorifies war.
* content which depicts children or minors in an unnatural or sexually explicit position.


That might have something to do with it, and Firaxis didn't want to take any chances. I can't say that I blame them.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

No one really could blame them at all. And since modding was made so easy and open-ended for users, why even bother putting such controversy into a game in which the ultimate goal is sales? There is a reason they made this installment of Civ so easy to mod. Even I can mod it, and believe me, I'm not going to spend very much of my time coding. It's so easy, I made my own Civ (minus custom graphics) in 10 minutes.

 

[the_elf]

I know that there is a mod (or graphics, at least) for a pre-Warlords Hitler. Is there a Warlords Hilter mod available? If so, could someone please point me in the right direction?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^I know there is one that uses the Napoleon leaderhead, but if that's the one you're talking about, I would just search the Mods / Customizations forums.

Here you go, bro. Click this link. I actually think you can use any leaderhead graphic for Warlords or vanilla. It's the Traits, AI personality, etc (XML) that needs to be specificly for Warlords or Vanilla.

 

[the_elf]

More on the German laws regarding games that glorify war:

http://www.germanlawjournal.com/current_issue.php?id=279

1. Glorification of War

[20] The prohibition on distribution pertains not only to media with criminal content, including exposure to violence, agitation of the people and pornography, but also to the glorification of war. (66) Media which glorify war may generally not be distributed to minors. (67) Placement on the index by the BPjM is no longer necessary for material containing this kind of content. An absolute prohibition on distribution of material glorifying war also applies to radio and telemedia. (68) The interpretation of the term Kriegsverherrlichung ("glorification of war") has always been rather extensive. (69) The abolition of the index-requirement is not expected to alter this general policy. (70) Otherwise, the prohibition could only apply to unrestricted praise of war. Presentations of war which are blind towards its cruelty would be ignored and not fall within the general ban. (71) Therefore, glorification means not only a "positive" description of the war. Ignoring or rendering the threats of war and the suffering of unsaid victims as banal, can also mean glorification, if it nourishes a positive attitude in the juvenile consumers towards warfare. (72) This can be the case, e.g., with computer-games that simulate war. The recent decision of the BPjS to put the latest version of the strategic computer game "Command&Conquer-Generals" on the index as glorifying war seems too restrictive in this regard. (73)

Very plainly, it makes better financial sense for Firaxis to make one version of their game that is adequate for all international markets.

Thanks for the link to the mod! I'll check it out.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

If anyone's interested, you can use the above posted link to grab the leaderhead graphic for AH and here are the links to edit XML to include him. It's actually quite easy. Just remember that most of the AI personality stuff can be left alone:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

TIP: Copy/paste from existing civs. Change only what you want to (city names, traits, UU, UB, starting techs, graphics). If you copy/paste a similar AI personality leader (Julius Caesar is a backstabbing warmonger) you DO NOT NEED TO ALTER THE AI PERSONALITY CODING. This is the most tedious and confusing looking code, so don't worry about it.

 

[Stexe]

If anyone's interested, you can use the above posted link to grab the leaderhead graphic for AH and here are the links to edit XML to include him. It's actually quite easy. Just remember that most of the AI personality stuff can be left alone:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

TIP: Copy/paste from existing civs. Change only what you want to (city names, traits, UU, UB, starting techs, graphics). If you copy/paste a similar AI personality leader (Julius Caesar is a backstabbing warmonger) you DO NOT NEED TO ALTER THE AI PERSONALITY CODING. This is the most tedious and confusing looking code, so don't worry about it.

If you look around you can find a mod that just includes him in without needing to modify any game values. You just go into Advanced and "Load Mod" and select "Adolf Hitler mod" and then when the game restarts he is a choice under the German civilization.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^Yeah, I would've put that, but not everyone agrees on what Traits he should have, starting techs, and UU / UB. I posted links so you can customize your very own Hitler!

 

[Crighton]

i can't believe we let this thread go over to four pages

 

[paleman]

I could've predicted the thread would be this long just by seeing the word "Hitler" in the title. People love sounding off about Hitler. He's almost as popular a topic as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

As evidence I cite The History Channel, which essentially devotes half its programming to Hitler.

 

[Tekee]

I don't really mind Stalin in the game
But Hitler will make some people uncomfortable in gErmany, I wouldn't be but seriuosly
EVerdya we get this Topic
I would like to see Hitler in this game so I could Destroy Him
But whatever