Why quests are bad

lamaros

Warlord
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
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208
Among all the issues facing this game at the moment, one that hasn't had enough scorn dropped upon it is the building quest system.

And not because they're a bunch of repetitive, unimaginative, un-'interesting' decisions with large balance issues.

But because they're hidden information, that players can't easily see or know about without experience playing the game and a good memory/much needed UI mod.

Sid Meier, he whose name is on the product, has talked about interesting decisions in games:

Good decisions are situational. There’s a very key idea that when the decision is presented to the player, ideally it acts in an interesting way with the game situation.

That's great Sid. But how exactly are we to make interesting decisions about, say, what technology to research and what building to build when the full consequences of those decisions are hidden.

If a player of Beyond Earth has decided that trade routes are what they want to pursue in their current game, and they're looking at the decisions they have to make to weigh up to execute that plan against other options, how on earth are they to make informed choices when vital things like 'your trade routes don't get attacked by aliens' is hidden away under a building that sometimes has no obvious or reasonable connection to such a game mechanism or plan?

Who thought that this system would make the game more 'interesting'? There's nothing here but a lucky dip, or a serious of tedious actions for experienced players that likely involve no decision making at all:

a) You either have no idea about the quest when you choose your building, and thus it contributes nothing to you decision at all, and it is a forced decision that you have to react to, not plan for

or

b) you know about it already and it informs your decision making at the building stage, and has no need to be further distinguished in to a later discrete query.

The supposed intention of these quests, if I can speculate, is to add narrative elements to the game, and give players more points to distinguish their different games.

But the narrative elements are very poorly executed, do not integrate with the rest of the game, and quickly become intrusive.

The decisions are obvious, unbalanced, or just inconsequential.

The decisions are needlessly complicated, opaque, and actually hinder the player's ability to engage with interesting decisions.

Think about this for a second from the perspective of a new player.

I'm playing Civ 5. It is one of my first couple of games and I don't really know how everything works. I need to research a technology and so I look at the tree. I mouse over the technology - it tells me what it does. I mouse over the buildings and units - they tell me what they do. I make my choice because I decide that I want to build unit/building x and get the other change a technology gives me. I research and then build said things.

I'm playing Civ: BE. It is one of my first couple of games and I don't really know how everything works. I need to research a technology and so I look at the tree. I get lost and confused because the UI is a mess. I recover, and I mouse over the technology - it tells me what it does. I mouse over the buildings and units - they tell me what they do. I make my choice because I decide that I want to build unit/building x and get the other change a technology gives me. I research and build said things. X turns later the game pokes me in the eye and say 'hey, actually it also does y or z too! Surprise!'

Or consider an experienced player.

I play Civ 5. I just play the game because, very high level play excepted, the game tells me what I need to know.

I play Civ: BE. I play the game with a web browser open so I can read up on all the quest benefits and don't make stupid choices, because the game is playing hide and seek with me.
 
The options should be more easily visible, yes, but that doesn't mean the quests should be done away with entirely. And while most of the time, the same option will be taken, yes, that's not always the case; perhaps you're playing at peace with the aliens, nest inside borders, they've turned blue, and you'd rather just keep them out of your territory completely with radius 3 fence because the won't pillage trade routes anyway. Even for the most unbalanced, heavily favored option in most games, every once in a while, you might want to pick the other choice.

The tooltips should let you know in advance what the possibilities are, yes, but they should remain possibilities.
 
The options should be more easily visible, yes, but that doesn't mean the quests should be done away with entirely. And while most of the time, the same option will be taken, yes, that's not always the case; perhaps you're playing at peace with the aliens, nest inside borders, they've turned blue, and you'd rather just keep them out of your territory completely with radius 3 fence because the won't pillage trade routes anyway. Even for the most unbalanced, heavily favored option in most games, every once in a while, you might want to pick the other choice.

The tooltips should let you know in advance what the possibilities are, yes, but they should remain possibilities.

Yes, but they should also be more interesting and more balanced. All the little '+1 x or +1y' ones are not that interesting to engage with, it's just something that pops up and gets in the way. If there are fewer of them and they have more significant implications, and require much more of a opportunity cost, then they are a good thing.

But as it stands they're mostly opaque and mostly tedious (where they're not massively unbalanced and therefore not even decisions).
 
I don't find it all that intrusive, but I'd favor fewer quest decisions with longer-reaching and well-explained implications (e.g. ALWAYS favoring food/energy/production/science/health/etc.).
 
To me this parses not as the quests being bad but rather as (1) the buildings needing tooltips regarding quest rewards and (2) the yields on quest options needing balancing.

Possibly also (3), the randomness could be removed, giving the quest immediately.

But I don't see the most damning possible argument, that building customization is bad. It actually seems like a nice bone to throw to builders, provided that the problems are fixed.
 
Great post Lamaros. I completely agree, the building quests are executed very poorly.
 
the building quests are situational, depending on when you build the building, and what path you are taking...

I like that I do not KNOW beforehand what everything does, but discover the options as I play the game... Nothing more boring than planning out a game BEFORE I start the game.

A few of the building quests/options need some balance, many are quite good and well balanced. That +1 for every building of that type does make a change to your game.
 
Perhaps it's not that quests are bad, but the way it's implemented? In essence it is a flavoring system to give more variety to our games.

Consider this change to the Ultrasonic Fence:

What if it potentially can have 4 choices, and in any game it will randomly present 2:
  • Repel distance +1
  • Trade convoys and vessels immune to alien attack
  • Explorers and workers immune to alien attack
  • Discover new orbital unit that repels aliens for 40 turns and has 3 tile radius effect
and obviously the Purity 1 bonus needs to be changed to something else.

In this example, the quest choices are actually interesting because each option is good in a certain way (one may argue trade convoy immunity is too good and should be taken out, say moved to become the Purity 1 bonus).

But then one could still argue that newcomer to the game wouldn't realize the trade route protection is there, and forgo the building altogether. Then consider this:

Ultrasonic Fence - generate a field that repels alien attacking our cities (1 tile radius), can be attached to trade convoys and vessels to repel aliens, guaranteeing the safety of our trade routes. Quest reward:
  • Scale up the generator to give cities a 3 tile repel radius
  • Miniaturize the generator so our Workers and Explorers can carry them
  • Develop reflectors to direct the ultrasonic field and make an orbital unit that can repel aliens in a 3 tile radius, nests won't be able to spawn aliens when under this effect

This time, we build the fence mainly for trade route protection, and in any game only 2 of the 3 rewards are presented.

I think the "hidden" nature of quests isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as the rewards are fluff and flavoring. When rewards are so strong that we will be choosing the same rewards every time regardless of actual game circumstances, then we start to feel a need to know about these rewards beforehand.
 
The quests would be great if they were
1. Visible & documented
2. Better balanced

Essentially this. Options and customization are never a bad thing; the only flaw is that you don't know options before going in (for those who prefer the sense of discovery, keep in mind that after enough games, you'll still know what the options are) and that the choices tend to be weighted where its A 95% time and B 5%, when the most 'unbalanced' it should be is at A 60% and B 40%.
 
Trade route protection from aliens should be a National Wonder requiring an Ultrasonic Fence in every city. Like National Wonders before it, the tech should be further out on the tree than Ultrasonic Fence itself, and the cost of building it should increase with the number of cities.

Either that or give us some other system that helps make the wide-or-tall choice a real one.

It should still be in the game. I assume it helps the AI even more than the player, who can better compensate for alien incursion on trade routes.
 
Somewhat related I think building quests should act like national wonders in civ v. For example, building 1 institute in your 10 city empire would mean a low chance to pop the quest. More institutes and the chances increase. It would give you some control over strategizing around the powerful quests and give you more of a reason to build more than 1 of the buildings with the one time benefit quests.
 
Among all the issues facing this game at the moment, one that hasn't had enough scorn dropped upon it is the building quest system.

Probably because a lot of folks like it? But, hell, everyone here and their dogs seems to be lining up to put the developers in the stocks and throw wet turds at them so for every design decision they made, so why not? And doubly bad, they didn't even show us this feature in the Let's Plays and introductory videos pre-release... err

And not because they're a bunch of repetitive, unimaginative, un-'interesting' decisions with large balance issues.

But because they're hidden information, that players can't easily see or know about without experience playing the game and a good memory/much needed UI mod.

They are not interesting for you perhaps but I, for one, enjoy customizing my buildings upon completion. This is a bonus which allows me to shape my civilization in a way that Civ V or earlier incarnations did not. I build my first library and a pop up asks me if I want to have free maintenance for my building or to have it generate one point of additional science. It's just a small flavor item that would make the game a bit more interesting. For me ;) Not for you it would seem. I'd bet that had they included that litte feature in Civ V in a patch, most folks would be lauding the designers. ;) But since Civ BE stinks like a load of dead fish, it's something to scorn (BOO!).

I'm playing Civ: BE. It is one of my first couple of games and I don't really know how everything works. I need to research a technology and so I look at the tree. I get lost and confused because the UI is a mess. I recover, and I mouse over the technology - it tells me what it does. I mouse over the buildings and units - they tell me what they do. I make my choice because I decide that I want to build unit/building x and get the other change a technology gives me. I research and build said things. X turns later the game pokes me in the eye and say 'hey, actually it also does y or z too! Surprise!'

For some folks, this process of discovery is part of the charm of learning a new game. Not for you it would seem. If I make an 'error' in choosing something that might have benefited me more in another way later in the game then I suck it up and will chose differently the next time that quest appears when I play the game. I make decisions and I live with the consequences of those decisions.

Unlike real life, there's literally nothing at stake playing this game except my time and as long as I'm having fun, woo hoo!
 
Most bonuses just don't matter enough. +1 gold or +1 hammers? Well, who cares. That's such a small bonus that it doesn't really make a difference. Yes, they probably add up but they feel meaningless. Even if the +1 hammer wasn't just worth so much more, the quest would still be boring.

I'm all for building quests, but they need to define how the buildings work and give real bonuses instead of little output-increases that just don't really change anything.

Also, more choices that are specifically tailored to be more useful for specific types of empires. "+2 Health and 100% cost increase or 20% cost decrease + maintenance free."; "+5 Gold per Building, but Building limited to 5 cities or +1 Gold"; "+5 Hammers, but building costs 1 titanium or +1 Food", etc.
 
Most bonuses just don't matter enough.

Aw, come on :D So you actually think that because YOU don't think it's a meaningful enough bonus that it should be bigger? In my example of free maintenance or one extra science per turn per library, that would be a bonus on a similar scale of meaning. So you'd want it to be free maintenance and +1 GPT or +2 science per turn to make the decision matter more? Given the problems this game already has with balance, this seems to be one of the occasions when they erred on the side of caution and we're hurling turds at them?

Further, on the OP, yes, they can and may very well improve the UI to reveal more about the decisions but that's a different issue from actually having the decision to make in the first place. IMO, the decisions are good.
 
A small number of people seem to be arguing against a straw man here, so ill just be extra clear.

I don't think the idea of quests/upgradable/customisable buildings is bad. I think the implementation is bad.
 
Aw, come on :D So you actually think that because YOU don't think it's a meaningful enough bonus that it should be bigger?
Of course I do, that's what an opinion is about. If I think something is badly designed, then I make my case, hope enough people agree that it gets changed. And it seems to go with the mainstream in this case, there have been a few threads on that already.

In my example of free maintenance or one extra science per turn per library, that would be a bonus on a similar scale of meaning. So you'd want it to be free maintenance and +1 GPT or +2 science per turn to make the decision matter more? Given the problems this game already has with balance, this seems to be one of the occasions when they erred on the side of caution and we're hurling turds at them?
That's not even so much about balance, that's about making different choices more effective in different situations. Yeah, sure, when 20 building-decisions accumulate to favor a specific play style, then they kill the balance, but then I'd take meaningful choices over 100% balance. In order to make choices matter, bonuses have to be bigger overall. They must allow you to really customize your empire in a way that allows for different play-styles and they must allow you to either use resources available, or to make up for resources that may be missing. Within reasonable parameters that is.

Also, the balance issues aren't caused by "many small things", they're caused by 2-4 big issues. Once they're addressed, everything else is finetuning.
 
100% agreed. The quests make buildings have hidden attributes which are not easily discovered without massive experimentation in the game.

Also, many of the quests have horribly imbalanced decisions. Do I want +1 gold per turn or an extra trade route? Hmmmm.... Let me think real hard about that one.
 
A small number of people seem to be arguing against a straw man here, so ill just be extra clear.

I don't think the idea of quests/upgradable/customisable buildings is bad. I think the implementation is bad.

I like the implementation, and actually having to pause and think about do I want +1 science for every one of those buildings I build, or do I need +1 energy, per building built of that kind, to offset my unit maintenance.

Or am I trying to max my science, so I take every science boost I can get?

And then I can leverage those +1 choices by my virtue choices... and the synergy bonuses.

The depth of choices, and the consequences of those choices is large.

I like that one has to play the game to learn about the game, that not every choice is spelled out in advance for every choice.... It is about learning, discovery, and adapting to the changes caused by your choices.
 
I like that one has to play the game to learn about the game, that not every choice is spelled out in advance for every choice.... It is about learning, discovery, and adapting to the changes caused by your choices.
I HATE THAT IDEA.

If you want to do that just don't look at the civilopedia
Perhaps they could have an option called 'Blind Play' where the only information the game gives you is the names.

You can research Genetics, You don't know when it will be done or what it will give you.

Hiding info like that is TERRIBLE LAZY game making. (For any game that is expected to be replayable)
 
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