Why Theodora?

Ghandi I'm more okay with. Although he was never the "ruler", he was still the sole most powerful political figure of his time, and could quite well have become the ruler if it weren't for his assassination. He is the reason that India even exists, and (most importantly to this discussion), he was second to no one in India at that time. On the other hand, Theodora was just an influential advisor.

You know, if they picked Constantine the Great as Byzantium's figurehead, they could have featured him in the Fall of Rome scenario. Oh well. Wonder how they'll cross that obstacle.

Quite easily - they had Sveyn instead of Harald for Denmark in the 1066 scenario (although used the same graphic). And disappointingly the leaders in the Wonders of the Ancient World scenario all use graphics from the main game.

As for advisors vs. leaders, how about the civilization that got a fictional leader (Siam)? One whose actual leaderhead was based on the more recognisable former Thai prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

My argument is this: the target audience for civ has never been historically literate people. It is meant to be a historically themed game that uses a popular and oftentimes silly interpretation of history, and it works. Historical accuracy and sensibility are just not part of the marketability of the game.

That's always partly been the case (hence, indeed, the Zulus), but Civ has a sufficiently established fanbase to go beyond that. We've had comparatively little-known Wonders trump more famous classically-known sites (remarkably, Petra is getting its first-ever airing in Civ in the Civ V expansion, and I'm fairly sure it has a higher public profile in the West than Shwedagon Pagoda or the Porcelain Tower). While not portrayed with a great semblance of historical accuracy, I was very happy to see the Songhai in the game.

The Civilopedia used to have more historical info than it does now on each technology; now we have leaderheads with a synopsis of that civilisation whenever you start or load a game.

Civ IV named barbarian settlements with names of various minor tribes throughout history.

Civ V has invested effort in trying to recreate the languages of its civs, in some cases even the forms of those languages contemporary with the rulers, when even most students of history wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Babylonian and Persian (and I understand that Darius is scripted in ancient Persian, not modern Farsi).

There's always been the appeal to the Civ games of at least introducing unfamiliar historical sites/empires/rulers/concepts, even if the treatment hasn't always been faithful to reality, and I doubt the series would appeal to many people wholly uninterested in history. The proportion of Americans who know the basics of history may be small, but then so is the proportion of Americans who have ever played Civilization - which, while enormously popular for a computer game, has still sold only around 8 million copies over 4 editions (don't know the figures for Civ V), expansions included in that figure.
 
That second point only holds true for Revolution/V, so while I don't think appealing to the widest possible audience is necessarily part of Civ's overall mission statement, you are correct in this case. As others and yourself have pointed out, this was ultimately a marketing decision.

It holds truest of all for Civ I - hence not only the Zulus, but the fact that its sales far outstripped those of all its sequels and their expansions combined (I think it's something like 6 million of the 8 million units sold of the first four games and their expansions were attributable to sales of Civ I). I even have a friend who'd heard of and, as a kid, played Civilization, and had never known there was a Civilization II, let alone a Civilization V.
 
I'm sure Sparta wouldn't be a fan of Pericles being their leader ;)

Or of being in the same nation as Athens, with Athens as the capital.

...I think the whole thing was solved in Civ4 best, with multiple leaders, so you don't have to go the way to figure out who is exactly the best.

...out of two or three options who you could still argue about. And about 50% of the Civ 4 civs only had one leader. Why Suryavarman II? Yes, he built Angkor Wat, but it was Jayavarman VII who is acknowledged as the greatest Khmer leader, who extended it to its greatest size, the one who recaptured the traditional capital (previously known as Yasodharapura) from the Chams, rebuilt the city with the majority of what is now Angkor Thom, and who commissioned the largest number of major monumental building projects in the empire's history.

I complain that she had no real authority and the actual ruler of the time was either Benjamin Disraeli or William Gladstone.

She certainly had more authority than more recent monarchs, but her importance is as a figurehead. Popular conception in Britain at the time was still of active governance by a monarch, and looking back today she's seen as the monarch who oversaw Britain at its greatest imperial extent - and of course with her best-known moniker, Empress of India. If anything Albert had more active influence in the running of the country during his lifetime - in particular it was his vision that the role of empire was intended to be benevolent to the people it oversaw, as well as serving primarily commercial (rather than military) interests. He was behind such public works as the Crystal Palace exhibition.

The objection is mostly manufactured. Unless the developers have outright stated that they're going for late Byzantine you have not sufficient cause to claim one period of time and its leaders are more "Byzantine" than another.

There are modern national sensibilities about it. Following Greek independence in the 19th Century a manufactured Byzantine identity was part of the manufactured national identity their early leaders cultivated - to them Byzantium is the period of the Eastern Roman Empire when its leaders were ethnically and linguistically Greek, despite the absence of genuine historical continuity with the Hellenic states or the post-Byzantine period. Greece was, after all, a new creation which derived its borders from the classical conception of the Hellenic world, but which had never previously existed as a discrete political entity, and it relied largely on that sense of historical identity both to fuel revolutionary fervour and to obtain sympathy and recognition in the West. This is the same reason Greeks get upset about the existence of a modern state calling itself Macedonia.

Calling Cleopatra VII ´a Roman puppet´ is as misleading as the OP is about Theodora. While someone like Hatshepsut was much more important to the Egyptian empire than Cleopatra ever could be, given the fact that she ruled when Rome was rising to the zenith of its power, she tried her utmost to ensure Egypts independence - and ultimately failed. But Roman antipathy to her supposedly negative figure (a cliche easily associated with the image of Egyptian ´decadence´) ultimately only led to her becoming the most well-known Egyptian female ruler in history - one of history´s great little ironies.

Just think, it could be a lot worse. What if we'd been landed with Tutankhamun, a kid pharoah with no notable achievements to his name who has become the most famous face of Egypt since the early 20th Century through the simple historical accident that he was too minor a figure for thieves to have known to look for his tomb.

Apart from making movies miss Monroe hardly played a part in US history. Going back to Joan and Victoria: I didn´t dispute Joan´s questionable military leadership, but, unlike Victoria, she actually inspired the French in a crucial part of history. Was she a leader? Not in the traditional sense, and I persoanlly wouldn´t have picked as a leader of the French at all - but that wasn´t the argument.

I think it's entirely reasonable to characterise Victoria as someone who inspired the British at a critical point in history - she was their call to empire; "For Prime Minister and Country" has never been a British call to arms, and she earned particular affection as "the widow" soldiering on in the face of personal tragedy. Truthfully, many Prime Ministers are little more than figureheads, and Churchill is today mainly known for what amount to soundbites - inspiring speeches. He didn't orchestrate or devise much of British war strategy, and what he did was something of a failure (the attempted invasion of Norway), much like another operation he masterminded as Minister of Defence some years earlier - Gallipoli. Like Victoria, his key function was to keep the troops' morale up rather than to actually govern.
 
Why Boudicca for the Celts? She's famous for losing a rebellion heroically.

Well, the Celtic leader in the past was semi-mythological, so I'd rather a leader that led a major uprising that burned Londinium and Camulodunum even if she was defeated in the end. She's in the same category as Vercingetorix, who is the other actually existing figure who could be chosen.
 
Well, the Celtic leader in the past was semi-mythological, so I'd rather a leader that led a major uprising that burned Londinium and Camulodunum even if she was defeated in the end. She's in the same category as Vercingetorix, who is the other actually existing figure who could be chosen.

Versingeteroix would have been my first choice - he might not have lasted long, but he did unify a much larger territory. He was meaningfully the leader of Gaul, while Boudicca only ever held sway over her tribe and a couple of neighbouring ones in East Anglia.

Not in the sense that Joan of Arc was, no. She did not lead troops (with questionable qualities or otherwise), and, as mentioned, Victoria was nothing but a figurehead; that an age was named after her is part misnomer and part irrelevant, as she also did not instigate any legislation (which is parliament´s job), nor did she do any heroic acts - in fact, all acts performed by her were rituals, as one would expect in a constitutional monarchy.

I'm aware of her issuing at least one decree that speaks to the values, at least, that Britain in retrospect wants to believe were cultivated in its golden age: upon learning of religious discrimination in India, she ordered religious equality be observed. Of course it had no binding political power, but it speaks of her as the sort of leader Britain would like to think of encapsulating its values (even though most of those values were likely inherited from her German consort).

So the only reason Victoria is a better ´leader´ than Marylin Monroe would be that she actually had something to do with government - albeit mostly by association. (Like Victoria having an era named after her, in Japan it is tradition to name an era after the ruling emperor - ignoring the fact that the emperor for most of modern history never wielded any real power.)

True, naming conventions aren't much to go by. We have an Edwardian era (albeit primarily referring to architecture and literature), but I don't think Edward VII is regarded as a terribly memorable or inspirational figure.

During her reign the modernization of English navy and development of a merchant navy bigger than before was well underway (it was in her time when the English navy abandoned old, unwieldy carracks and Great Ships in favour of small and fast "race-built" galleons, but also some heavier warship designs). This led to exploration and discoveries, which in turn led to colonies. Also, victory over the Spanish Armada (well, with much aid from Mother Nature) opened the seas for England. As England in Civ V is mostly a naval power, Elizabeth is a good choice to accompany this. Her father's naval ambitions were quite limited and the navy was full of obsolete vessels, save for a few then-modern Great Ships (although they also were too big for any reasonable action, even if they were armed with experimental breech-loaded guns. but even they proved to be unsuccessful and too difficult to use at the time).

I think this underscores how artificial it is to distinguish between rulers who "ruled" and those who simply presided as figureheads over major national events. Henry VIII essentially created the modern British navy; prior to that the island had not had a significant naval presence, but Henry was obsessed with two things (other than sport and wives): making England (and specifically him) credible in Europe again, with fantasies of emulating his predecessor Henry V, and technology. He introduced bronze-casting of cannon and, I think, also breech-loading to England. He designed what was intended to be the most sophisticated warship of the age, the Mary Rose. As in many things, Henry's ambitions outgrew his achievements, and the Mary Rose sank the first time it opened its gun ports, before ever firing a shot. But my point is that Elizabeth was not the innovator Henry was; she was simply in place during a process that was already ongoing.

As for the famous victory over the Armada, this is part of the national myth of the underdog Britain has built around itself, of the little island punching above its weight. It's never been true. Britain is one of the larger territories in Europe, it is so rich in natural resources that it was a favoured target for numerous invasions throughout its history and has always been among the wealthiest countries in the continent - from the most extravagant Dark Age burial sites in Europe to Napoleon's "nation of shopkeepers", to a country with the coal and metal resources to fuel the first stage of the Industrial Revolution. It's rarely been far from the main stage of European politics. For anyone sympathetic to Jared Diamond's ideas of the deterministic importance of geography, climate and resources on the way history plays out, the rise of Britain as a major power was essentially inevitable given its location, and happened several times under different rulers with varied policies.

The Armada is the same myth. What Britain likes to think is that it beat the odds, with grudging acceptance for the role the weather played (God, after all, being an Englishman). What actually happened is that the Armada was a fool's errand - the English had the larger and more sophisticated fleet, even without mishaps. It's likely true that the Armada would, if it had not been split up, ended Britain's naval ambitions for at least the immediate future, but it would have been as ruinous for Spain and would never likely have lead to the promised Catholic invasion of the mainland. Again, Elizabeth was there to be a figurehead and give an inspiring speech (or at least have one attributed to her), not to do any of the actual leadership.
 
Versingeteroix would have been my first choice - he might not have lasted long, but he did unify a much larger territory. He was meaningfully the leader of Gaul, while Boudicca only ever held sway over her tribe and a couple of neighbouring ones in East Anglia.

Tacitus said all of Britain rose up and joined her. There were Gaul on Caesar's side as well. Both are very similar figures all together. One is just continental, male, and fought Gaius Julius Caesar, the other is insular, female, and fought Gaius Paulinus Suetonius (who, obviously, was no Caesar).
 
Thta´s quite incorrect: ´all of Britain´ was not known in Caesar´s day - who, by the way, makes his own mention of the events in De bello Gallico, and there is no such phrase of ´all of Britain´ rising against Caesar´s invasion force (most of the inhabiting tribes would probably have been unaware of it). Casar´s ´invasion´ of Britain is much more similar to his incursion into Germany, which was equally temporarily. In fact, apart from actually having been there, both expeditions seem to have had little consequence, if any. Vercingetorix on the other hand united much of Gaul against Roman occupation and would, if succesful, have nullified Casar´s efforts of the previous 4-5 years (not too mention endangering his political position back in Rome). So Boadicea and Vercingetorix seem barely comparable on any level.

I'm aware of her issuing at least one decree that speaks to the values, at least, that Britain in retrospect wants to believe were cultivated in its golden age: upon learning of religious discrimination in India, she ordered religious equality be observed. Of course it had no binding political power, but it speaks of her as the sort of leader Britain would like to think of encapsulating its values (even though most of those values were likely inherited from her German consort)..

So your argument is that Victoria is the same kind of figurehead Joan of Arc was?

actually happened is that the Armada was a fool's errand - the English had the larger and more sophisticated fleet, even without mishaps. It's likely true that the Armada would, if it had not been split up, ended Britain's naval ambitions for at least the immediate future, but it would have been as ruinous for Spain and would never likely have lead to the promised Catholic invasion of the mainland. Again, Elizabeth was there to be a figurehead and give an inspiring speech (or at least have one attributed to her), not to do any of the actual leadership.

From accounts of the events surrounding the Armada expedition it is totally unclear how the Englsih could have been superior in numbers. Similarly, obviously Elizabeth would not have been in military command: hers was the political field.

I think it's entirely reasonable to characterise Victoria as someone who inspired the British at a critical point in history - she was their call to empire; "For Prime Minister and Country" has never been a British call to arms, and she earned particular affection as "the widow" soldiering on in the face of personal tragedy. Truthfully, many Prime Ministers are little more than figureheads, and Churchill is today mainly known for what amount to soundbites - inspiring speeches. He didn't orchestrate or devise much of British war strategy, and what he did was something of a failure (the attempted invasion of Norway), much like another operation he masterminded as Minister of Defence some years earlier - Gallipoli. Like Victoria, his key function was to keep the troops' morale up rather than to actually govern.

In what sense did Victoria ´inspire´ British imperialism? The two had, in fact, little to do with one another, and the latter would most definitely have occurred with no Victoria at all. The Victorian age refers much more to the supposed moral quality of Victoria than to actual events of the period. Obviously Victoria ´inspired´ the people of the age, as it was she who was their monarch. But little is different from todays´ monarch, where the royal is merely the figurehead of government. (Not to mention that ´the people´ had little power in Victorian days, and their gaining of political power was completely irrelevant to her being queen.) In the end, Victoria inspired no social or political movement at all, and had no relation with any of the wars fought during her ´reign´. (In fact, the name of her house was changed from the German name to a more English sounding name during WW I, as Germany had suddenly gone out of fashion. That´s not an example of inspiring the people, but rather of adjusting to the political fashion of the day.)
 
Theodora and Justinian indeed made a powerful pair, yet one cannot rule without the other. The option should be in place for some alternate leaders; off the top of my head, I can decide upon a few:

Heraclius
Alexius I
Basil II
Constantine XI
(and if you want to be a warmonger and absolutely cruel) Adronicus ;-). just kidding there.
 
Andronikos I was a rather sucky warmonger.
 
but quite the tyrant. ;-). I was just kidding there, if you wanted to just be absolutely cruel to your people.
 
Not in the sense that Joan of Arc was, no. She did not lead troops (with questionable qualities or otherwise), and, as mentioned, Victoria was nothing but a figurehead; that an age was named after her is part misnomer and part irrelevant, as she also did not instigate any legislation (which is parliament´s job), nor did she do any heroic acts - in fact, all acts performed by her were rituals, as one would expect in a constitutional monarchy. So the only reason Victoria is a better ´leader´ than Marylin Monroe would be that she actually had something to do with government - albeit mostly by association. (Like Victoria having an era named after her, in Japan it is tradition to name an era after the ruling emperor - ignoring the fact that the emperor for most of modern history never wielded any real power.)

Powerless or not, she was the head of state and was the representative of the British Empire for over 60 years. She was a national icon, much in the same way that has been argued for Joan of Arc, but she was at least a Queen, and she was certainly inspirational for her people. I do see what you're saying though. Honestly, if Margaret Thatcher hadn't been so unpopular she would be a better candidate. But I'm fine with Elizabeth I - it's hard to think of a better female option.

I didn´t say she shouldn´t be picked as a leader, in fact, if France should have a female leader, I don´t see much competition for the part. I wouldn´t have picked her for a leader, no, because the male candidates are far better as represenation for France.

I agree. There is no competition for the part because France has never in anything remotely like a real sense, had a female political leader. Joan of Arc only qualifies on a military level, for an extremely brief period in time, and was subsequently vilified even by her own King until some decades after her death. That, in my opinion, isn't enough for her to be considered as a candidate for a leader - even if France has no viable alternatives. Which makes me glad the days of having a choice between a female and male leader for every Civ are gone.
 
Thta´s quite incorrect: ´all of Britain´ was not known in Caesar´s day - who, by the way, makes his own mention of the events in De bello Gallico, and there is no such phrase of ´all of Britain´ rising against Caesar´s invasion force (most of the inhabiting tribes would probably have been unaware of it). Casar´s ´invasion´ of Britain is much more similar to his incursion into Germany, which was equally temporarily. In fact, apart from actually having been there, both expeditions seem to have had little consequence, if any.

I'm not talking about the resistance to Caesar's invasion. I'm talking about Boudicca's uprising in 61 AD.

Vercingetorix on the other hand united much of Gaul against Roman occupation and would, if succesful, have nullified Casar´s efforts of the previous 4-5 years (not too mention endangering his political position back in Rome). So Boadicea and Vercingetorix seem barely comparable on any level.

Boudicca burned London and Colchester to the ground. Here is what Tacitus said in the Agricola (the Annals are a better source, imo, but I like the phrase "Britain would have been lost":

Rousing each other by this and like language, under the leadership of Boudicca, a woman of kingly descent (for they admit no distinction of sex in their royal successions), they all rose in arms. They fell upon our troops, which were scattered on garrison duty, stormed the forts, and burst into the colony itself, the head-quarters, as they thought, of tyranny. In their rage and their triumph, they spared no variety of a barbarian's cruelty. Had not Paullinus on hearing of the outbreak in the province rendered prompt succour, Britain would have been lost.
 
I'm not talking about the resistance to Caesar's invasion. I'm talking about Boudicca's uprising in 61 AD.

My bad; I misread you comparing Vercingetorix with Caesar´s invasion of Brittannia (with which Boadicea obviously had little to do).
 
Yeah, I was comparing Boudicca to Vercingetorix as the two relevant candidates for a Celtic leader. Could Vercingetorix work? Yeah, he could. But I think Boudicca is just as qualified. Unfortunately, Rome's enemies are usually known just for their interactions with Rome so the best leader (if this can be objectively determined) will inevitably have to take a backseat to the ones that fought Rome.

Take Carthage. You either have Rome's greatest enemy or the one that allegedly started their hostility (which, of course, is crap, Carthage and Rome were actually on the same side until Sicilian politics dragged them into war together). Maybe Hanno the Great was the best leader of Carthage (which, to be honest, I have no idea), but it will always be either Hannibal or Dido. That being said, it seemed like Carthage had three names, Hannibal, Hamiclar, and Hanno, so you could just use any of those and not necessary have to refer to the great general.
 
Hannibal, Hamilcar, and Hanno

I´m unfamiliar with Hanno the Great unless that is the same as Hanno the Seafarer. And Dido ofcourse should definitely not be a leader for Carthage; unlike Gilgamesh - who is recognized as an actual historical figure -, she was most like originally a goddess and her relation with Carthage´s political history is all but nil. Not surprising since women rarely played a role in official politics in Carthage or Rome (which were both republics with a senate).
 
I personally don't think Gilgamesh should be either. He's considered likely based on a real person, but that's not quite the same thing as a concretely established leader. I usually say Ur-Nammu or Shulgi.

As for Hanno. There are apparently three separate figures who are referred to as "Hanno the Great." The one I'm talking about was the one who fought against Dionysius I of Syracuse in the never-ending fights between Carthage and Syracuse. He might have bestowed the title upon himself because he certainly had some shortcomings.

Never realized I was dyslexic for Hamilcar's name. Thanks for the pointer :)
 
I agree. There is no competition for the part because France has never in anything remotely like a real sense, had a female political leader. Joan of Arc only qualifies on a military level, for an extremely brief period in time, and was subsequently vilified even by her own King until some decades after her death. That, in my opinion, isn't enough for her to be considered as a candidate for a leader - even if France has no viable alternatives. Which makes me glad the days of having a choice between a female and male leader for every Civ are gone.

Sigh, nobody reads my posts, he? For the second time in this thread, there's Catherine de Medici. I'm not gonna list the bullet points for her again, but if there's a female French leader, she should be chosen, even if in a mixed ranking, there's quite a few men before her.
 
A couple concerns.

There's already a Catherine
A Medici would be confusing since she's Italian

Not significant problems, but still mild concerns.
 
Errr...ummm.... Marie Antoinette was Austrian. That´s what royalty did (and does): marry dynastically so as to cement (or forge) political relations. (Catherine the Great was German.) ;)
 
Sigh, nobody reads my posts, he? For the second time in this thread, there's Catherine de Medici. I'm not gonna list the bullet points for her again, but if there's a female French leader, she should be chosen, even if in a mixed ranking, there's quite a few men before her.

I came to this discussion quite late, and tbh I have only really been reading Jeelen's posts, so sorry about that :D

I had actually thought of Catherine. In fact, I was so convinced that I had already suggested her myself that I had to search the thread twice to find out that I hadn't.

She had popularity issues, which is the only thing IMO counting against her - aside, of course, from the fact that she wasn't titular leader, which sadly affects all women that could be considered for France. But yes, she's a better candidate than Joan of Arc.

Frankly, Eleanor of Aquitaine (apart from the fact that most people think of her as Queen of England, and she was more powerful then than she was in France) and Isabeau of Bavaria would equally be acceptable candidates - at least, more so than Joan.
 
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