Why was Civ4 released before it was finished ? A letter to the developer

Civ 4 at it's worst is much better than Call to Power (can't say about CTP2, fool me once, you know?)...having that comparison in your message weakened your point. If you had limited it to the civilization series it would have been stronger.
 
Precisely, Kolyana (I might just not be in total agreement regarding the "inevitable" part, but that's a different discussion for a different place ;) ).

And as we both know and as evidence such as the present one demonstrate clearly, there are certain barriers concerning both the demography of our particular subject matter (our -mine at least, taking pot shots here :p - generation might have been luckier in that regard, with what the game industry used to be not that long ago and what it is now) and also the actions of those who choose their paths in life based on that dreadful bynom, "higher" interests and lower morals (I believe it's become common practice for most well established game publishers to make sure to have at least one or two "unofficial" representatives in any major public discussion boards around their product, and then there are the cases of "disrupters" sent to boards or even online servers of rival products... all quite disgusting and sad, and such a waste and corruption of new potentials such as the Internet), which all contribute to the status quo you so well described.

I'll tell you this, I for one won't sleep with the weight on my conscience of having supported those sad affairs with my own money. First because I don't need to either way (board rules wouldn't allow me to specify), and second because I despise the kind of those responsible too much.

Regardless, hey, maybe 2 buyer letters are better than 1, 3 better than 2 and... you know. I'll leave that suggestion in the air anyway :)
 
I for one won't sleep with the weight on my conscience of having supported those sad affairs with my own money. First because I don't need to either way (board rules wouldn't allow me to specify)

Oh, so you pirated the game and are complaining anyways.
 
I don't think you were granted a basis to form that conclusion and make that kind of accusation based on what has been written on this thread (if you read my first post with more care you'll conclude that in fact I bought the game), but I'll forgive you and ignore your post without reporting it to the forum moderation for the time being. Please let's remain on-topic and civil and respect the forum rules :)
 
Burberryan said:
I don't think you were granted a basis to form that conclusion and make that kind of accusation based on what has been written on this thread (if you read my first post with more care you'll conclude that in fact I bought the game), but I'll forgive you and ignore your post without reporting it to the forum moderation for the time being. Please let's remain on-topic and civil and respect the forum rules :)

I made the same assumption...
 
Burberryan said:
Precisely, Kolyana (I might just not be in total agreement regarding the "inevitable" part, but that's a different discussion for a different place ;) ).

And as we both know and as evidence such as the present one demonstrate clearly, there are certain barriers concerning both the demography of our particular subject matter (our -mine at least, taking pot shots here :p - generation might have been luckier in that regard, with what the game industry used to be not that long ago and what it is now) and also the actions of those who choose their paths in life based on that dreadful bynom, "higher" interests and lower morals (I believe it's become common practice for most well established game publishers to make sure to have at least one or two "unofficial" representatives in any major public discussion boards around their product, and then there are the cases of "disrupters" sent to boards or even online servers of rival products... all quite disgusting and sad, and such a waste and corruption of new potentials such as the Internet), which all contribute to the status quo you so well described.

I'll tell you this, I for one won't sleep with the weight on my conscience of having supported those sad affairs with my own money. First because I don't need to either way (board rules wouldn't allow me to specify), and second because I despise the kind of those responsible too much.

Regardless, hey, maybe 2 buyer letters are better than 1, 3 better than 2 and... you know. I'll leave that suggestion in the air anyway :)

I truly considered writing (read: snailmail) to Sid himself; I can be somewhat literate and felt that I could make a good case for 'the consumer'. At the end of the day, though, my comment regarding "inevitable" is more of a resigned realization that any form of complaint is only likely to make any form of difference ... even on an extremely minor level ... if it ultimately is made, or ends up in the hands of, the decision makers; read: The Board.

I feel that Firaxis are well aware of the problems with this title, it's rushed nature and the vagrancies of a publisher calling the shots ... me adding my voice to this would accomplish nothing. I think that they'd agree with me, I suspect that they feel the same way in many respects, but ultimately they will not say as much out loud. Again, "don't bite the hand that feeds you" and, more accurately, don't say anything against the company who now owns you.

On a broader scale I *do* remember those days of extremely high quality products, games that invariably did not crash all of the time and developers who truly took a great deal of pride in their work.

I think it would be unfair to say that these days are gone, but it seems that the more individual developers who are bought out by the large publishers, the more the gaming industry will slide in quality, depth and innovation.

"Inevitable" because I think that this cannot be avoided when one considers the natural evolution of a software publisher with a lot of money, desiring nothing but more money, only caring about deadlines and viewing "games" as nothing more than a means to an end; this is not "Civilization 4, the fourth installment in a legendary series" to Firaxis, this is "Name recognition = money". It's the same mentality that causes spin offs from films ... most are terrible, but then all are made for money and not pride.

"Inevitable" because no publisher will ever truly care about the individual titles it releases ... this is the domain of the developers ... but when developers are *owned* by publisher and while publishers call the shots, the standard of title will always be less than it could have been.

I think your letter would have been better mailed 'conventionally' and probably copied to Firaxis, but then I'm more inclined to think that a "gamers consumer group" representing we - the gamers - would better vocalize the situation to the industry, rather than a handful of peeved emails.

For me, I'll not buy another Take2 title until I have read reviews from fan-sites such as this and feel safe that my money is being spent wisely. Perhaps, in time, Take2 and others will realize that some fans do have a long memory, or a "Richard Branson" will come to the software publishing world.

You know, thinking about it - and don't throw stones at me here - but Microsoft actually has a "quality" gaming division. I've heard of them cancelling titles because they did not have the polish and quality they felt their name required, and I like that: A publisher concerned about it's self image and quality of goods released to the consumers. I'm not a Microsoft fan, but I do that that particular attitude.
 
I didn't bother reading your letter but I'll take a stab at answer your subject question. I'd say the answer is pretty simple:

So people could buy and receive the game for Christmas. The commercial aspect was the main part of course - don't forget if Firaxis wasn't making money their would be no Civ4 (or future Civ5 for that matter).

The game did work out the box for a hell of a lot of people. Not only that, but releasing when they did meant they had time to get the TWO patches out before Christmas which have addressed the major issues.

I'd rather have got it early than waited till after Christmas-eve to get the patched version - plus without releasing it fully so many issues would not have been highlighted so the game would still have needed much patching I'm sure.
 
Kolyana said:
I like that: A publisher concerned about it's self image and quality of goods released to the consumers.
Well, I think we all do (even those who don't know they do :lol: ).

So... when does Sid leave Firaxis to the hands of Take2 or whomever and found his third (I hope I didn't lost count) independent company to bring us some... less corporate compromised... quality games ? :D
 
I'd love to see him start again ... thus far I'm inclined to believe that anything under the Take2 umbrella is likely to be substandard.
 
At initial release the game was definately not a 5 star game, it would crash half the time for me. The patch that was provided by THIS forum before the 1.5 patch cleared things up and I have no issues with the current version.


Its pretty stupid to cry about something like the pedia, that being said NO excuse for the way the game was shipped.

Seems like ALL firaxis games are junk when they first come out.
 
laughable. "won't sleep with the weight on my conscious ...." Yes, but you can sleep knowing that other moneys you spent may have supported child labor or a gazillion other things that actually have importance. God forbid that we spent our money on something that provided for some families so that maybe their kids could have cloths and food and stuff.

In so far as a written letter over an e-mail....yes- of course, e mails are cheap , usually short, and a dime a dozen. A written letter is still more of an offical record. Anyone could have sent that e mail. Signature?

-i suspect that the writer does not have many problems- which is a good thing. Instead of writing your congressmen about legislative changes, or maybe volunteering to help out the red cross, you prefer to moan about a video game -with the air of someone who has suffered in some kind of way.

Used to be someone would complain/sue if like a lawn dart hit them in the head.
Like to see a line of people that have been electrocuted or choked by products
and while swapping horror stories you can say " That ain't nuth'n compared to me...i bought a computer game and the civlopedia was hard to read. I returned it and got my money back, but man, what a nightmare."
 
Come on now, he has a right to complain, it's just the way he did it and the tone of his letter that I think most people object to.

Plus, it's kind of an exercise in futility...that letter is going right in someone's (virtual) circular file as soon as they see it, anyway.
 
I wish something so eloquent could have been written (and debated) just on the sheer collective frustration that the public has experienced just trying to play 20 or 30 turns of the darn thing with the game and computer dumbed down to embarassingly low levels....be thankful the thing even works for you (right now)
 
mad mark said:
I wish something so eloquent could have been written (and debated) just on the sheer collective frustration that the public has experienced just trying to play 20 or 30 turns of the darn thing with the game and computer dumbed down to embarassingly low levels....be thankful the thing even works for you (right now)

Dude, come on, it wasn't eloquent. It was like the Polar Express or the Corpse Bride- 10 times longer than it needed to be. Yeah, it was long and filled with flowery adjectives, but, here's the content, edited for relevance:

"I don't like the civilopedia. Please re-do it."
 
I never saw the abreviated version of the civlopedia in v1.0 or v1.09, so I don't how acute the problem was. I'm just frustrated that I don't get to observe and debate some of the finer details of the game/programming because IT WON'T WORK :cry:

I'm just patiently waiting for the next patch.....
 
Burberryan said:
I don't think you were granted a basis to form that conclusion and make that kind of accusation based on what has been written on this thread (if you read my first post with more care you'll conclude that in fact I bought the game), but I'll forgive you and ignore your post without reporting it to the forum moderation for the time being. Please let's remain on-topic and civil and respect the forum rules :)
This small part of the forum moderation reached the same conclusion as Warpstorm.
 
Eloquent? ..... "it has become painfully real " ? ..."pit trap" ? (pitfall i assume)
The first pararagraph is one sentence. Ever hear of a period? It gives the reader a break from what is otherwise a rambling tirade. That letter is poorly written. (Unless it is from a kid, in which case its pretty good.)
 
MrCynical said:
Call to Power I believe was made by Activision, and didn't have anything to do with Sid. I was rather unimpressed with CTP and found CTP 2 was an unbalanced and buggy game. Neither of them is in the same calibre as any of the Civ series, including Civ 4.

Ive been told CTP2 had some nifty features not in the civ series such as actual mixed-unit armies that fight as an army rather than individual units with range/armor etc taken into account and sea colonies/ public works?.

Apparently 'SMAC' had a lot of features absent in civ series as well?.

Im pretty new to 'civ' (my father played em all and got me to try civ 3 and im hooked). Ive considered civ 4 but must say the demo has put me off it. I really found the interface and graphics offputting.
 
i was dissapointed with Civ4 and thought it was boring. But after about 6 games it started opening up for me- there are alot of fun things in this version but u have to discover them as you go along. I suspect the demo is a bad thing on which to base ur decision.

In so far as graphics and interface- i use single unit graphics (less clutter and matches other units- like ships -which are single -( harmony, unity )
I also use that Blue Marble Mod which makes the terrrain more pleasing (to me- less harsh- )

Call to Power was a great game. Some hated it tho- thought there were to many
non military units ect. It also had stacked combat with a front rank and ur artillary ect in the back rank which would fire afor the battle began.
 
One thought: When games are released with expectation to patch in the coming weeks and months, the gamers get a bigger chance to be involved in the final development of the game. In Civ IV, many of the things in the two major patches were due to suggestions by people on this very site. I'm personally glad we get a malleable product that can be improved so easily. I don't even buy console games anymore because they actually can't be improved, and i've been burnt more than once on games that turned out to be less than fun.

If you really don't like unfinished products, wait a few months to buy a game (any new release, not just Civ). This is the state of the PC game market.
 
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