Why was Civ4 released before it was finished ? A letter to the developer

[aaronflavor]

As near as I can tell, this "patch" thing is relatively new, probably a result of the proliferation of high speed Internet links in most modern countries. Prior to broadband, approximately 1999 and earlier, most games did not have significant patches. In fact, until very recently, the term 'patch' did not appear in the common computer user's vocabulary. (I would suspect the term originated in widespread programmer usage due to Larry Wall's original 'patch' program.)

The fact of the matter is, as has been mentioned before, many modern programs are shipping with much less testing and polish than previous programs. Some have mentioned above that there is significant variety in user configurations. However, in recent years, complexity of end-user configurations has done nothing but decreased; DirectX is a walk in the park compared to the myriad of insanity that games in the mid-90's needed to deal with, between memory, SVGA, and sound card issues.

Well, the standard of quality in software has lowered significantly. This isn't a good thing, because it was pretty low to begin with, compared to other engineering disciplines. Maybe an economist can explain why. In any case, producing shoddy software is paying off big lately; video game profits are at record highs, dwarfing profits of many of the traditional entertainment industries.

So, does the OP have a right to demand higher quality from an industry thats continuing to record higher and higher profits at his expense? Absolutely.

 

[Burberryan]

Thanks for the insightful post, aaronflavor. That's in fact the core of what we're talking about here - or a few of us are anyway, even if that at least does provide its own brand of excellent insight into the reasons which allow game publishers to get away with what they're doing these days.

A note aside: at this point and based on a few specific poster comments, I'd like to apologize for any literary shortcomings in my post(s) that seem to form the basis for some of the critiques (or in some cases, a poor excuse for those with an interest in adding some more unrelated and disruptive trolling into the discussion). If that may serve as an explanation of sorts, english, you see, is not my native language

A point I'd like to clarify for some people who seem a bit confused as to my original remarks: my problems with the civilopedia aren't as much with its interface (yes, I tried the latest patches as well, and there's this nifty, cool user made thing called Sevopedia which some of you might be familiar with - I wonder why he felt the need to do it, and why so many people feel the need to use it if you take my meaning) but with its contents.

The writing is excessively summarized. Worse: it's incomplete. A bare minimum, if any, of historical considerations are present in most cases. Where in previous incarnations of the series a couple of *pages* of informative and genuinely interesting text could be found for a single concept or item, now there are a couple of half-witted lines. It would seem as if this new civilopedia was written in a hurry by someone who doesn't like or who is incapable of reading more than a few syllables in a row and maybe directed at someone suffering from the same limitations. It's not needed to include a full copy of a real-life encyclopedia in the game, but the level at which we descended now is ridiculous.

Needless to say, those players with the aforementioned personal limitations aren't forced to read the civilopedia in full form, or at all, if they don't care for it. As for people like myself, it's a vital, integral part of the game that in Civ1-3 proportioned many hours of sheer pleasure complementing the management aspect of the game, and which we find sorely lacking here, together with the remaining rushed design parts (examples can be continually found everywhere: why would a buyer feel the need to use modding tools to remake the main interface window itself almost immediately after the game shipped ? Or other basic gameplay windows and screens ?).

I've decided to write that letter in snailmail form (maybe with a quick passage through an english corrector ) as well to reinforce the point. I encourage anyone with a common interest to take 5 minutes off and do the same. Remember, it's not just about what can be made - in no small part by the buyers themselves and not the publisher, the sad point we have come to - to fix the holes in the game which is already out, but how will *future products* be handled.

Thanks again to all who bothered to read and to participate in a constructive, impartial and mature way. Please don't let me stop you from continuing or from letting those who haven't yet, to add their own views and ideas. Despite any obstacles put in place, that's all that a community is about, afterall

 

[Bushface]

Burberryan - I wish that I could write in your native language, whatever it is, as well as you write in mine. Or even half as well.

 

[spankey]

So, does the OP have a right to demand higher quality from an industry thats continuing to record higher and higher profits at his expense? Absolutely.

We all have the right to demand, but the right of free speech does not guarantee a right to be heard and acknowledged. We ultimately have the right to purchase a product or withhold our money. As with all things, money talks...

 

[Bushface]

There was an old programmer's saying (and yes, I am an old programmer, going right back to the pre-PC days of CP/M) that no program of more than 1000 lines of code could ever be more than 99% correct. And the bigger the program, the better the chance that somebody will find a hole somewhere that needs a patch. Moreover, even patches can have holes in them, and this forum has lots of people finding them and looking for fresh ones.
My own personal gripes about Civ4 are almost all about its strange arithmetic. Even more strange is that arithmetic is exactly what computers were intended for in the first place.

 

[jayeffaar]

I like the game and I've also had zero problems (just the usual bugs) ... but I am concerned with the attitude of the gaming industry and on this point, Take2 is a good example. "It's not ready, but we want the cash so releas eit now and we'll worry about it later."

Hey, at least, they are still worrying about it (that's probably the Firaxis influence). I have bought a few Take2 console sports games over the years which were pretty much unplayable from the start and remained unplayable in their next incarnation the following year.

 

[Sadan01]

Hey, at least, they are still worrying about it (that's probably the Firaxis influence). I have bought a few Take2 console sports games over the years which were pretty much unplayable from the start and remained unplayable in their next incarnation the following year.

EA, with some of its games, could fit in that category too.

 

[Smidlee]

As near as I can tell, this "patch" thing is relatively new, probably a result of the proliferation of high speed Internet links in most modern countries. Prior to broadband, approximately 1999 and earlier, most games did not have significant patches. In fact, until very recently, the term 'patch' did not appear in the common computer user's vocabulary. (I would suspect the term originated in widespread programmer usage due to Larry Wall's original 'patch' program.)

Patches is the one advantage (along with mods) PC games had over consoles especially after PS2 and X-box came out. Of course patches and mods became more popular as more PC gamers going online.
Don't forget the PC market still has to compete with these consoles even more as they become more powerful.

The fact of the matter is, as has been mentioned before, many modern programs are shipping with much less testing and polish than previous programs. Some have mentioned above that there is significant variety in user configurations. However, in recent years, complexity of end-user configurations has done nothing but decreased; DirectX is a walk in the park compared to the myriad of insanity that games in the mid-90's needed to deal with, between memory, SVGA, and sound card issues.

Well, the standard of quality in software has lowered significantly. This isn't a good thing, because it was pretty low to begin with, compared to other engineering disciplines. Maybe an economist can explain why. In any case, producing shoddy software is paying off big lately; video game profits are at record highs, dwarfing profits of many of the traditional entertainment industries.

So, does the OP have a right to demand higher quality from an industry thats continuing to record higher and higher profits at his expense? Absolutely.

Let say if everyone decided not to buy civ4 until everything was perfect to please everybody. Then noone who dare invested in civ5 or any future pc games. The advantage of releasing a game which 90% of pc gamers can play with little hassle is the game starts to come out of the red while a developer like Firaxis can spend time patching any bugs and improve things like civilpedia. There's no way around the fact both Firaxis and Take2 has to please the investors or they will be out of a job. So they got to find the middle ground in satisfing both the investor (who sees time=money) and the customer. This is true with both consoles and Pc gaming.

 

[Armorydave]

Glad it has worked perfectly on my system since the day it was released.

I sympathize with the OP but wonder what exactly he hopes to accomplish with his e-mail. The Civilopedia seems to be largely fixed (although I seldom use it anymore so I am not sure) and the economic realities that lead to release decisions will not be effected by e-mails. They will be decided by market realities. Given the commercial success of Civ 4 it is unlikely that Take Two or Firaxis will see the decision to release early as a mistake regardless of the negative feedback they receive from those who cannot run the game properly. If sending the e-mail was cathartic, more power to you. If you expect it to influence future behavior I suspect you will be disappointed for reasons explained well by Troythedface and others.

Final note, companies take snail mail far more seriously then e-mail. If you really want a response; print it, put it in an envelope and mail copies to all relevant parties.

 

[warpstorm]

As near as I can tell, this "patch" thing is relatively new, probably a result of the proliferation of high speed Internet links in most modern countries. Prior to broadband, approximately 1999 and earlier, most games did not have significant patches.

It's a shame that this charming story isn't true. Civ2 had to be patched out of the box to make it work on computers without sound cards (which wasn't as uncommon as you'd think then). ('96)

Master of Magic needed 3 major patches before it was really working ('95). Master of Orion had 3 patches also ('93). Darklands, well, let's not talk about that one ('92). How about F-19 Stealth Fighter (88)? Hmmm, I seem to remember downloading a patch for Pirates on my Amiga.

Check the dates.

I remember getting patches for my computer games much earlier than 1999 (nearly ever game had at least one). There were things called bulletin boards. You have to remember that games in this era came on a few floppies so your 300 baud modem would be able to get them.

I still have a large box full of these patch floppies.

BTW, Larry Wall wrote the program patch in the 80s, so I guess Unix programs needed patched even then.

 

[The Q-Meister]

Other posters have already made the OP's points much more succinctly and effectively- it pretty much boils down to "I don't like the Civilopedia".

The Civiliopedia is useless after a few trips through the game, anyway.

Exactly.

There are far greater concerns than the Civilopedia. My greatest concern/frustration with it, which I never see mentioned, was the absence of any indication what techs you need to ask another Civ to convert/adopt to your civic and religion. This would probably be though, the LAST thing I complain about if I were to write a letter to Firaxis; if I was working in the company and I read this letter my reaction would be: "Sooo the only thing he doesn't like, is the Civilopedia? Which we already updated anyway in another patch? Sounds like we did a pretty good job then!"

 

[boneys26]

why waste your time on emailing them they really don't care what we think if they did they would have finished the game before selling it or at least almost finished it patch v1.09 was ok game was still a bit slugish but it was ok now they sent us v1.52 and its starting to hit me civilization is starting to die out v1.52 has started yet more problems now with video memory my graphics card has 256mb built into it and my system has 1gb pc3200 ram and the games telling me i don't have enough.... how much does one game need... ok i could understand if it was a fast moving all out waring game with every pixel changing due to explosions here there and every where but its NOT its a slow turn based game where the fastest thing moving is the mould in your coffee that you forgot to drink due to the war your thinking about starting. lets face it peeps civilization has now started its slow death and the only people that care is US not even sid cares hes got his money thats all they wanted and thats all that matters to the big companies now not us or what we think or what we want if they did they would have sold us a game that is fully working. BUT there is light at the end of the tunnel as i am not going to buy another 2K/Firaxis game untill they get this problems that is civ 4 sorted once and for all.

R.I.P Civilization you will be missed

 

[Armorydave]

"All reports of my demise are greatly exaggerated."

 

[siroxo]

So - without being antagonistic - would you say that we (the gaming commnity) are now paying for beta testing?

In a sense, yes (Civ IV was released well past any beta-state of games I've betaed, but I see what you mean).To me this paying is not a problem; it's not like we have to pay for this round of "beta testing" and again for the released game. We just get a chance to be involved with the final stage of development.

Again, my only suggestion (because of the state of the market) is to wait a while before buying, if you don't want to be involved in this "testing" period.

 

[Raider62]

I agree that it seems the community has been given the task of polishing games these days. Its just a shame that when you have a common parts gaming system (AMD chip, Nvidia Graphics card, Asus mobo) that the game still has very obivious bugs. Are you telling me no beta tester had the above configuration during testing or that there was very little if any testing...I am disappointed, not surprised but disappointed....

Still waiting on a fix for BFG Nvidia 6800's Thamer if your still out there...

 

[Breunor]

It's a shame that this charming story isn't true. Civ2 had to be patched out of the box to make it work on computers without sound cards (which wasn't as uncommon as you'd think then). ('96)

Master of Magic needed 3 major patches before it was really working ('95). Master of Orion had 3 patches also ('93). Darklands, well, let's not talk about that one ('92). How about F-19 Stealth Fighter (88)? Hmmm, I seem to remember downloading a patch for Pirates on my Amiga.

Check the dates.

I remember getting patches for my computer games much earlier than 1999 (nearly ever game had at least one). There were things called bulletin boards. You have to remember that games in this era came on a few floppies so your 300 baud modem would be able to get them.

I still have a large box full of these patch floppies.

BTW, Larry Wall wrote the program patch in the 80s, so I guess Unix programs needed patched even then.

And Master of Magic, my all time favorite game, even after the third patch was in a position that is 100 times worse than CIV IV's first release. Indeed, the technical problems with this game are the source of infinite jokes for us old-timers. They have spells that affect the caster instead of the enemy, some spells that ALWAYS cause memory issues and the game ALWAYS crashes eventually (cannot be recovered), bugs that cause overflow issues (if you get too much of something it overflows and you lose everything), features that players think work and don't, galleys that for some reason become invincible, etc. Indeed, it became a full time effort for players spend years trying to find the bugs and report them.

If you played MoM version 1.3.1 (the last) a lot, you will never ever complain about the bugs in any version of CIV IV.

I remember that players on this forum told me that the bugs in CIV III were worse than in Master of Magic. Anyone saying that to a gaming executive will lose ALL credibility with anyone in the industry, comparing it to the game with essentially THE WORST technical issues of any 'Great' game.

Breunor

 

[Kamamura]

Unfortunately I think we're witnessing the unfortunate - and yet inevitable - effect of capitalism; the ebb and flow, the natural evolution, of business if you will.

Board rooms only care about profit and shareholders ... Take 2 has and will continue to release sub-standard or buggy games as long as it doesn't adversely affect their bottom line. If they can release a game *now* and reap the rewards of a pre-christmas season, at the cost of a few people having problems and a couple of disgruntled voices, then they will do so ... every time.

Very, very few board rooms will put customer satisfaction before profit.

I've had some problems with Civ4, I'm very disappointed with the general quality, and I'm disgusted with the take2 attitude ... but at the end of the day they're not the only ones and the gaming industry will continue to slide this way until something major happens to cause the industry to 'wake up'.

Don't worry, something will definitely happen. After all, whole USA that houses majority of these leech-like "publishers" ("let's resale other people's work while contributing nothing"), is already in serious national debt, most of which is owned by Asian banks and investors. Society ruled by the above-mentioned mentality was even foolish enough to "outsource" most of its production abroad, depriving it's own members of wealth and work opportunities. It's only a matter of time before Asians won't accept more dollars, and the whole think will be just flushed down the toilet of history with together other decadent empires like Egypt, Rome, Soviet Union. And with it hopefully disappears a social system that glorifies people who don't produce anything, know anything and live from others' talent and effort (marketroids).