There´s no doubt that jews in history produced number of great persons. I wonder why? I somewhat should understand how they should get wealthy easier than christian in medieval times (interests on loans were forbidden by Church), but the number of great advisors and scientists (check nobel prizes) is unbelievable. I cant mock from fear abused by populists during various times. So were they realy superior race, or it was something with religion/culture?
Why were jews superior?
- Thread starter REDY
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It wasn't Jews, it was specifically Ashkenazi Yiddish-speaking German Jews. You don't hear about tooo many noble prizes going to the Ladino speaking Sephardi Jews in Istanbul for example.
Obviously there's things like the focus on literature and education in Jewish culture, but also I think some of the answer lies in how spectacular those fields were in German speaking lands (I'm including Bohemia and Moravia in this, as they were part of Austria) in the 19th and early 20th centuries more broadly. As well as the sciences there was also a particular flowering in German Jewish literature and the arts.
Once they were allowed out of the ghettos and gained equal political rights, German Jews were by far the most successful and integrated Jews in the world at that time, they were interwoven into the fabric of bourgeois middle class German life until the Nazis and the Holocaust (when the "biggest success story" status moved to North American Jewry). However they were still somewhat outsiders to the Germans, and I think it's interesting how many important achievements get made by "outsiders" in any given society. I believe that hybridity and identity crisis, such as those experienced by German Jewish intellectuals in this era, gives people more perspective on the world, and less tendency to take things for granted as "this is just how they are". So it's fairly natural that they'd be more prone to writing or discovering new things!
Obviously there's things like the focus on literature and education in Jewish culture, but also I think some of the answer lies in how spectacular those fields were in German speaking lands (I'm including Bohemia and Moravia in this, as they were part of Austria) in the 19th and early 20th centuries more broadly. As well as the sciences there was also a particular flowering in German Jewish literature and the arts.
Once they were allowed out of the ghettos and gained equal political rights, German Jews were by far the most successful and integrated Jews in the world at that time, they were interwoven into the fabric of bourgeois middle class German life until the Nazis and the Holocaust (when the "biggest success story" status moved to North American Jewry). However they were still somewhat outsiders to the Germans, and I think it's interesting how many important achievements get made by "outsiders" in any given society. I believe that hybridity and identity crisis, such as those experienced by German Jewish intellectuals in this era, gives people more perspective on the world, and less tendency to take things for granted as "this is just how they are". So it's fairly natural that they'd be more prone to writing or discovering new things!
Simple question, simple answer: Judaism isn't a race, it's a religion. (So antisemitism isn't antijudaism; it should also include Arabic peoples, as they are the same Semite "race" - there's no such thing really, apart from the human race.) As to why Judaism would be superior, that's for the theologians.
Maimonides
Emperor
1. We're not superior.
2. We're not a race.
I don't know exactly why we achieve so much in relation to our small population, but if we don't do well in life, our ancestors reach up out of their graves to throttle us.
EDIT: We also highly value education. That must have allot to do with it. We also know that if we don't do well, we could end up right back in the ghettoes & concentration camps... It's not easy being a tiny minority.
2. We're not a race.
I don't know exactly why we achieve so much in relation to our small population, but if we don't do well in life, our ancestors reach up out of their graves to throttle us.
EDIT: We also highly value education. That must have allot to do with it. We also know that if we don't do well, we could end up right back in the ghettoes & concentration camps... It's not easy being a tiny minority.
plarq
Crazy forever
1. We're not superior.
2. We're not a race.
I don't know exactly why we achieve so much in relation to our small population, but if we don't do well in life, our ancestors reach up out of their graves to throttle us.
EDIT: We also highly value education. That must have allot to do with it. We also know that if we don't do well, we could end up right back in the ghettoes & concentration camps... It's not easy being a tiny minority.
Now you're indirectly blaming black Americans and Latinos for their repulsive attitude towards education.
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Verbose
Deity
What Arwon said.
Expanding a bit (well quite a bit):
Around 1900 the French poet and essayist Charles Péguy made the observation re. the literary and argumentative skills of various peoples/religions:
"After all, your average Jew has been a literary person for two millenia, the protestant for half a millenium, but your average Catholic Frenchman only for three generations."
I.e. tradition counts.
As for the specific Jewish investment in science, well, what one also needs to ask onseself is: "What else where there for them to do?"
I.e. the Jews if Germany and Central Europe in the second half of the 19th c. availed themselves of the opportunities opened by the liberalisation of those societies. University studies was one of these opportunities that gelled well with them.
But what not least the antisemites of the day had implicitly assumed was that the Jews would somehow disperse evenly to all walks of life in society. That didn't happen. Instead talented Jews sized up this society they had just been formally admitted to, and more often than not chose those careers and professions least likely to still penalise them for being Jews.
They were already admitted to Uni. Science kept itself with a meritocratic ideal which would theoretically not penalise them for their background, if only the science was good. You also wouldn't get all the ideological agro of the time associated with a "Jew" writing say the history of the people/literature/art etc. of the "German" people, or the Renaissance of whatever still pegged in people's minds as "not Jewish" at least. The study of "Nature" is a neutral subject by comparison.
The Jewish group's appearence in the new "free professions", writing for the theatre, mass journalism etc., was even more pronounced, and made a number of them publicly very visible (and targets for further antisemitism).
What they didn't really do was get into lines of work where the as a group had 1) a weak tradition (all kinds of trade, agriculture in many places, since the Jews had been an urban group for very long), and 2) they often stayed clear of civil administration, the diplomatic corps, and the officer corps, i.e. lines of work where, as someone put it, "It's immaterial what your name is, as long as it doesn't include a 'von'".
And then, as it happened, the predominately German speaking Jews also found themselves to have invested in the great 19th c. success story of German science, which bowled everything the French and the Brits had tried already over, eventually providing the blueprints for how the US wanted to organise their massive scientific success in the 19th c.
The German Jews of Europe as a group to an extent piggy-backed on this as well.
I.e. there are structural factors at play here that have like zero to do with what Jews "are like".
Expanding a bit (well quite a bit
):Around 1900 the French poet and essayist Charles Péguy made the observation re. the literary and argumentative skills of various peoples/religions:
"After all, your average Jew has been a literary person for two millenia, the protestant for half a millenium, but your average Catholic Frenchman only for three generations."
I.e. tradition counts.
As for the specific Jewish investment in science, well, what one also needs to ask onseself is: "What else where there for them to do?"
I.e. the Jews if Germany and Central Europe in the second half of the 19th c. availed themselves of the opportunities opened by the liberalisation of those societies. University studies was one of these opportunities that gelled well with them.
But what not least the antisemites of the day had implicitly assumed was that the Jews would somehow disperse evenly to all walks of life in society. That didn't happen. Instead talented Jews sized up this society they had just been formally admitted to, and more often than not chose those careers and professions least likely to still penalise them for being Jews.
They were already admitted to Uni. Science kept itself with a meritocratic ideal which would theoretically not penalise them for their background, if only the science was good. You also wouldn't get all the ideological agro of the time associated with a "Jew" writing say the history of the people/literature/art etc. of the "German" people, or the Renaissance of whatever still pegged in people's minds as "not Jewish" at least. The study of "Nature" is a neutral subject by comparison.
The Jewish group's appearence in the new "free professions", writing for the theatre, mass journalism etc., was even more pronounced, and made a number of them publicly very visible (and targets for further antisemitism).
What they didn't really do was get into lines of work where the as a group had 1) a weak tradition (all kinds of trade, agriculture in many places, since the Jews had been an urban group for very long), and 2) they often stayed clear of civil administration, the diplomatic corps, and the officer corps, i.e. lines of work where, as someone put it, "It's immaterial what your name is, as long as it doesn't include a 'von'".
And then, as it happened, the predominately German speaking Jews also found themselves to have invested in the great 19th c. success story of German science, which bowled everything the French and the Brits had tried already over, eventually providing the blueprints for how the US wanted to organise their massive scientific success in the 19th c.
The German Jews of Europe as a group to an extent piggy-backed on this as well.
I.e. there are structural factors at play here that have like zero to do with what Jews "are like".
I dont know If I am influenced by literature, but I have to still ask. From medieval Spain or Soviet Russia there were still many jews of special influence. Sure I should aim on German speaking jews in central europe but still, even these who spoke Czech were superior in comparision with the rest of population, in first Czechoslovakia for example jews studying law (in czech) were about 1/5 of all students.
Maimonides
Emperor
Sorry, I don't know much about the Czech Jewish community, but I can answer your other two.
Medieval Spain was ruled by Muslims & Jews there faced MUCH less persecution than they did under Christian rulers elsewhere. This allowed the Spanish Jewish community to thrive. When the Muslims were finally unseated, Jews were immediately expelled from the country or forced to convert to Christianity which brought that golden age to a screeching halt.
Concerning Soviet Russia, you have to differentiate between the early days & the latter. Russian Jews overwhelmingly supported the communist revolution because it promised equality & an end to centuries of terrible persecution. Leon Trotsky is the most well-known Jewish revolutionary, but there were many. I have to assume this is what you mean when you say that Jews showed great success under the Soviets.
Unfortunately for the Russian Jews (& every other Russian), the revolution did not deliver on it's promises. Anti-Jewish policies were set in place under the Soviet system-synagogues were seized, Jewish studies outlawed, segregation, etc. In the latter decades of the Soviet Union, the only Jewish standouts you find are the ones who managed to get out of the Soviet Union or the refuseniks exiled in Siberia who's writings were smuggled out. I really don't understand why you would think Jews did well in the Soviet Union. We spent the 70s & 80s smuggling out as many as we could.
EDIT: A couple things about the OP are really bothering me:
1. We are not superior to anyone or anything. The thread title sucks.
2. How on the good, green earth could you think that Jews made money more easily than Christians in medieval Europe??? That's so wrong I don't even know where to begin.
Sharwood
Rich, doctor nephew
On the Jews making money thing, Christianity outlaws money lending, which is why there were a great many Jewish bankers. It was a niche they filled nicely. This also assisted them when they were finally let out into the wider world, as already possessing money enabled them to enter professions easier, and obviously had an impact on their education.
And Jews are totally superior to everyone - God said so. Anyone who doesn't say so is an evil anti-Semite who should be executed for hate crimes. Israel should be given Iraq as a province, and rule the entire Middle East while we await God's coming. Sorry, I was channelling the religious right for a second.
And Jews are totally superior to everyone - God said so. Anyone who doesn't say so is an evil anti-Semite who should be executed for hate crimes. Israel should be given Iraq as a province, and rule the entire Middle East while we await God's coming. Sorry, I was channelling the religious right for a second.
RedRalph
Deity
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Well, there was the autonomous zone (still exists in Russia today). Admitedly not in the nicest part of the USSR, but at least ye got one, many ethnicities and religious groups didnt and it was a damn sight more than Jews were getting in most European countries at the time. My step father who is Jewish tells me apparently its becoming a popular destination for Jews to live again
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Another aspect to Jewish involvement in finance and commerce was their easy access to both Muslim and Christian socities which had no contact with each other. Thus they could move easily between both as merchants and traders bringing with them shared knowledge, science and new goods via their access to the Silk Road. Practically all trade networks in Europe before 1200AD were Jewish ones. So their accumulation of wealth is not surprising and was their greatest sin in the closed, jealous and xenophobic world of Christian Europe.
That fits in nicely with the thread title. (Although valueing education doesn't seem to blame anyone of anything, directly or indriectly.)
This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast
It's not *quite* that simple. There's plenty of utterly nonreligious Jews and there's people that practice Judaism that many Jewish groups (especially the Orthodox) don't consider Jewish. Jewishness is a weird and almost unique identity because the it carries both a religious and a hereditary/ethnic component, yet isn't a nation nor geographically bound.
It's not *quite* that simple. There's plenty of utterly nonreligious Jews and there's people that practice Judaism that many Jewish groups (especially the Orthodox) don't consider Jewish. Jewishness is a weird and almost unique identity because the it carries both a religious and a hereditary/ethnic component, yet isn't a nation nor geographically bound.
RedRalph
Deity
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Autonomous what?
Se below. were you really not aware of this?
Verbose
Deity
Quite.
There was this indirect effect of the fact that they formed an obvious minority under a certain preassure - community solidarity. I.e. since the surrounding society was more or less hostile towards them on and off, it became a survival strategy to band together and be scrupulously honest in dealing with the other members of the group.
Add to that that Jews had this foothold in moneylending, was likely to try to spread their risks by not having operations exclusively in one country (since with a certain regularity they got banned and expelled, at least from the Christian kingdoms), and already had a supra-national network of family and friends of the same creed operating on principles of solidarity, well, what you get are the basic necessity for an international financial system.
The problem with that picture is perhaps that it might make people think all Jews were wealthy bankers. The vast, vast majority were not, and as poor as the next Christian or Muslim of the day. The small segment who did do money transactions could do well due to factors like these though.
The Italians, the Lombards in particular, started giving the Jewish trade networks a run for the money beginning in the 12th c. though. Tends to happen where there are profits to be made, never mind religious scruples.
I agree with your thoughts about Spain and USSR but I think that you missed my thesis. I agree that jews were persecuted and many times interfior because political and popular antisemitism, but thats making their succeses even more admirable. I dont speak english well, maybe I should check dictionary to find more proper words, superior is not proper expression but I think that majority of people understand what I have meant. Jewish larger possibilities in trading were enlarged by others, about money lending thing I have read in various literature about mediveal society.
RedRalph
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I think successful is the word youre looking for, but most know what you mean in any case
Elta
我不会把这种
What the fresh hell are you talking about?
A majority of Latinos in this country are first generation and there are just as many Latinos in college % wise as there are anyone else per capita. As a matter of fact Asians, White, Black and Latinos are all within one % of their college age population as enrollment in the Nevada state system of higher education.
I am not even going to get started on false beliefs about why a higher % of black people live in poverty compared to whites.
I hate it when people who are not from here try to make assumptions about my country, I don't care how many times you have visited here. If you were not born here you know squat. Repulsive attitudes? Yeah Blacks and Latinos are repulsed by education
.... Your saltin a wet salamiMaimonides
Emperor
I have no clue what you guys are talking about. I never said anything about the African American or Hispanic communities in the U.S. & have no idea what that has to do with this thread. I couldn't say that either of them are "repulsive...towards education."
What the fresh hell are you talking about?
A majority of Latinos in this country are first generation and there are just as many Latinos in college % wise as there are anyone else per capita. As a matter of fact Asians, White, Black and Latinos are all within one % of their college age population as enrollment in the Nevada state system of higher education.
I am not even going to get started on false beliefs about why a higher % of black people live in poverty compared to whites.
I hate it when people who are not from here try to make assumptions about my country, I don't care how many times you have visited here. If you were not born here you know squat. Repulsive attitudes? Yeah Blacks and Latinos are repulsed by education
Thanks for saying what I was thinking, though I've never heard that "salting a wet salami" expression before.
There is some truth in that, but travelling & gaining access were faaar from "easy."
Simply not true.
The Jewish "accumulation of wealth" in medieval Europe is largely a myth. It's hard to accumulate wealth when the ghetto gates are being knocked down by a riotous mob, your home is being looted, your wife raped & you're not allowed to own land in a pre-modern society. Other myths from that time & place include matzah being made from the blood of Christian babies & plague being caused by Jews poisoning wells. Nevermind that Jews had to drink from the wells, too... As you say, Jews were a handy & accessable scapegoat.
For some reason, the myths linking Jews to wealth have persisted to this day. There are & always have been plenty of poor Jews. I've worked my tail off for everything I have.
That wasn't set up as a result of Jewish political influence. It was more of a policy of segregation & international PR from Stalin & other non-Jewish Soviets.
When the Soviet system fell, Chasidic organizations started setting up shop there to help the Jewish community regain what had been lost under the Soviets. That's probably what your stepfather is thinking of. It is definitely not a "popular destination for Jews." It's too isolated & too cold.
Thank you!!!
Venice & Genoa had trade agreements with Muslims rulers even before that. The Vikings & Muslims were also trading with each other through Russia before that. Surely, there are other examples as well.
Agreed.
I suspected that, but thanks for clarifying.
Using the word, "superior" to describe any group of people is a bad idea.Also, it's standard to capitalize ethnic names like "English" & "Jew."
It is true that Jews filled an important economic niche in medieval Europe. One can look at the credit crunch going on today to get an idea of what happens when nobody is lending money. As far as I know, the Templars were the only Christian group permitted by the Church to practice usary back then & even wealthy landowners needed a loan from time to time. Unfortunately, this gave Christians yet another excuse to persecute Jews which is why it's a touchy subject.
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