Wierd defender selected?

[Sm0ke]

Hi,

Playing Civ4 BTS since a long time being gone...

I played last game with Darius on emperor level, then i got attacked by Khmer.

I got 2 Swordsman 3 Axeman and 3 Immortals in my city. Khmer attacked with a Axeman and somehow I defended also with a Axeman instead of a Immortal. My Immortals where promoted twice ( 2 strength ) at least and that Axeman of mine was not promoted at all.

To my knowledge i have much better defend odds with my Immortal so why is the AI choosing a Axeman to defend my city?
BTW I lost that Axeman vs Axeman battle.

In his attack stack he had also 1 Swordsman.
He had 3 Spearmans in a other hex also against my city

Sm0ke.

 

[kossin]

Immortals/Chariots/War Chariots get a bonus on attacking Axemen/Vultures/Phalanxes only (not on defending).

Not however that Phalanx get a 100% defending bonus against our wheeled friends.

 

[Sm0ke]

Immortals/Chariots/War Chariots get a bonus on attacking Axemen/Vultures/Phalanxes only (not on defending).

Not however that Phalanx get a 100% defending bonus against our wheeled friends.

That makes sense, Thx for the quick reply.
Installing BTS again now

 

[dirtyparrot]

That being said, the mechanics of picking the best defender is a bit bugged. The best defender is not always chosen to defend (and this is complicated by 1st strikes). For example cannons are often times not selected as best defender even though if your stack are maces and cannons they might technically be.

 

[oranje willem]

That being said, the mechanics of picking the best defender is a bit bugged. The best defender is not always chosen to defend (and this is complicated by 1st strikes). For example cannons are often times not selected as best defender even though if your stack are maces and cannons they might technically be.

I don't know how it works exactly, but I think the system calculates relative strengths. With that I mean that often a spearman will defend your horse archer even though a longbowman has a bigger chance of winning. (This is from personal experience, maybe it's not even true, but I seem to remember it this way )

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That being said, the mechanics of picking the best defender is a bit bugged. The best defender is not always chosen to defend (and this is complicated by 1st strikes). For example cannons are often times not selected as best defender even though if your stack are maces and cannons they might technically be.

It's a shame they can't keep medic units and great generals from defending, considering that selective, non-str based code exists.

 

[dirtyparrot]

^ I was going to mention/rant that but got lazy

 

[oleg1]

Speaking of defending/attackig.
When fighting vultures with Axemens - How exactly bonuses work in this duel depending who is attacking ?

 

[Aldor]

Immortals/Chariots/War Chariots get a bonus on attacking Axemen/Vultures/Phalanxes only (not on defending).

Does Numidian Cavalry get its bonus vs. melee when defending? I was fighting against Hannibal some game and attacking his numidian cavalry in the city with macemen, and lost pretty bad.

 

[mrwookie]

numidian cav are horse archers and to my knowledge they both don't have any melee bonus unless with xp wich should be aplied

 

[oleg1]

numidian cav are horse archers and to my knowledge they both don't have any melee bonus unless with xp wich should be aplied

Read th NC description again

 

[Silu]

Speaking of defending/attackig.
When fighting vultures with Axemens - How exactly bonuses work in this duel depending who is attacking ?

All attacker bonuses except Combat promotions are subtracted from the defender instead of applied to the attacker.

Say, a C1 Vulture and C1 Axe duke it out.

Axe attacking: 5 + 5*0.1 vs 6 / (1 - (+0.25 - 0.50 + 0.1)) = 5.5 vs 5.22

ratio approx. 1.054 in favor of Axeman

Vulture attacking: 6 + 6*0.1 vs 5 / (1 - (0.50-0.25 = 6.6 vs 6.75

ratio approx. 1.023 in favor of Axeman


In a nutshell, it's better to be attacking if your base strength is higher if you have combat promotions.

EDIT: God I suck at combat math...

 

[oleg1]

Spears have 100% against mounted. Does that mean monted have 0 strenth ??
I think - not absolutely sure but what I see in combat odds - what subtracted is spear valie:

HA of 6 against spear of 4 results in effective HA strenth of 6-4=2.

 

[Silu]

^ Someone will come to explain better soon 'cos my brain seems to be addled too badly by the flu... Anyway, negative bonuses for the defender are applied as a reciprocal so that Spear vs Chariot amounts to 4 vs 4 / (1-(-1)) , 4 vs 2. (100% for the attacker halves the defender's strength basically)

Sorry for the crappy explanation

 

[Xiao Xiong]

It's a shame they can't keep medic units and great generals from defending, considering that selective, non-str based code exists.

If I can promote my scout to medic, thanks to lions and grizzlys, I keep him for the rest of the game. Two moves per turn and never chosen as a defender!

 

[Scoottr]

Eventually your scout will get chosen as a defender...if it has the higher hp left in the stack.

 

[PieceOfMind]

It's a shame they can't keep medic units and great generals from defending, considering that selective, non-str based code exists.

The Lead from Behind modcomp does very well at ensuring great generals do not defend at the wrong time. I think it also makes medics less likely to defend, but I forget now.

Speaking of defending/attackig.
When fighting vultures with Axemens - How exactly bonuses work in this duel depending who is attacking ?

Silu gave a pretty good exaplanation already.

But if you want a very simple explanation, which will also apply to Sitting Bull's dog soldiers...

In general the unit with the higher base strength but lower situational bonuses (e.g. vulture) stands to gain more from defensive bonuses. The unit with lower base strength (e.g. dog solider) but higher situational bonuses (i.e. the bonus vs. melee) stands to gain less from terrain defensive bonuses and tends to be stronger on flat ground.

Example: Vultures are very hard to kill on a hill or forest. They are actually weaker against axes if on flat ground.
Example: Dog soldiers are better on flat ground than axes or vultures whether attacking or defending.

If you throw combat promotions into the mix it becomes a lot more complicated.