Wiki update - Greek Strategy

[onedreamer]

Why build an extra city (which is going to need to be defended against the African hordes and makes science more expensive) when you can have 3 seafood each with 2 cities?

You don't need 3 seafood in Greek Cities to win the UHV, or to do just about anything. Actually, you don't need them at all. It is a lot more preferrable to have 4 cities than 2 with 3 seafood (Athinai, Epidamnos, Byzantion and Ephesos). You will have:

1- much more production
2- much more GPP
3- much more population (research)

which are the things you need to win.

 

[blizzrd]

OK, I think I'm (nearly) done with improving my time for circumnavigating now. This time I got circumnavigation in 390AD, the same turn as I founded Islam. I had all the wonders including both Jewish and Christian Shrines with the exceptions of the Colosseum + Hanging Gardens (China) and Mahaboti (India).

Another stinking plague the turn I discovered Optics wiped my population in half, I finally got over the plague on the turn I got the UHV. But this time the plague didn't slow me down at all. Because of the reduce population my score was down quite a bit from what I had hoped for though - only 17K this time.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Three actually, one in Bablyon also. So access via trade routes for Marble is not an issue, as each area (Greece, Egypt, Babylon) has it's own Marble.

Not sure why you are using a single worker in the early turns, I have a pair together for all of the early turns (until at least the Oracle is built). These workers don't have much to do other than mines and quarries until I trade for some of the worker techs, which is only once I get Alphabet from either Carthage or Rome. So repeating worker action turns during those early turns replacing a mine with a quarry doesn't lose me anything really.

Actually, it's not true that you get to use that local marble. If your city is not connected to your capital (and that's true when Thebes's or Babylon's culture doesn't reach the coast), even if you have a quarry locally, it doesn't count. (Unless you decided to build the Oracle in that city, but those conquered cities are rather small to start with as opposed to your Greek cities.) So IMHO it's important to get Greek marble up ASAP, i.e. founding a city on it.

As far as onedreamer's comment is concerned, yes, it's better to have 4 cities, but I founded my Roman city and Byzantion, and have the other conquests, so I have more than enough cities for science. Neapolis was actually quite productive after mines are built without Moai statues and opens the way for future European conquests (if one's not gunning for the UHV). And since it was my capital, my workers spawned there, I pre-chopped an early Oracle (5 turns after I got Priesthood, my first tech) and was in medieval age in around 1250 BC (?) by getting machinery.

 

[onedreamer]

I did the same founding Athens and... all that Romans usually do in my Greek games is help me with research, why screw them ??

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I did the same founding Athens and... all that Romans usually do in my Greek games is help me with research, why screw them ??

I hate it when Rome founds theology when I'm aiming for it, but now they're out of the picture.
If you take out the usual wonder building civs (Rome, Babylonia, Egypt) there's less competition for them. E.g. the Great wall which will free you up for research rather than defensive troops. Your research should be good enough anyway without anybody.

 

[blizzrd]

Actually, it's not true that you get to use that local marble. If your city is not connected to your capital (and that's true when Thebes's or Babylon's culture doesn't reach the coast), even if you have a quarry locally, it doesn't count. (Unless you decided to build the Oracle in that city, but those conquered cities are rather small to start with as opposed to your Greek cities.) So IMHO it's important to get Greek marble up ASAP, i.e. founding a city on it.

Your meaning here is not clear. What do you mean you don't get to use the local marble - unless you decided to build the Oracle in that city? This seems contradictory.

I have usually conquered Babylon and recovered from the revolt by the time I have finished researching Priesthood, so the local marble shows in Babylon's city screen as an available resource. I could choose to build the Oracle in either Athens or Babylon and get the reduced production time in either, even though the two cities are not yet connected by a trade route.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Your meaning here is not clear. What do you mean you don't get to use the local marble - unless you decided to build the Oracle in that city? This seems contradictory.

I have usually conquered Babylon and recovered from the revolt by the time I have finished researching Priesthood, so the local marble shows in Babylon's city screen as an available resource. I could choose to build the Oracle in either Athens or Babylon and get the reduced production time in either, even though the two cities are not yet connected by a trade route.

That's surprising. In my Babylonian/Persian emperor game I had given Athens to Persia as a gift and then switched over to Persia. Even though Athens had the marble already improved, it could not build the Temple of Artemis in half time, but my capital (Shush) could AFTER I improved the marble near it. I attributed it to the fact that Athens wasn't connected to a trade route to my capital, which means all my other cities couldn't get it, including Athens.

In any case, I'm having a wee bit of difficulty beating the Chinese to the Colosseum if I were to build the Parthenon before 50 AD, but maybe I'll have to go back even further to achieve it.

 

[blizzrd]

In any case, I'm having a wee bit of difficulty beating the Chinese to the Colosseum if I were to build the Parthenon before 50 AD, but maybe I'll have to go back even further to achieve it.

I've never had a Greek Colosseum in any of my recent games either, but that is because I ignore Construction for a long time. Perhaps if I re-ordered the research (I think I will still have no problems discovering Literature Drama and Philosophy first) I could have nabbed the Colosseum early too.

I always build the Parthenon with a GE early, because I head for Aesthetics as the first tech researched after the Oracle (which I still always use to take Machinery).

 

[blizzrd]

I did the same founding Athens and... all that Romans usually do in my Greek games is help me with research, why screw them ??

Rome usually declares war on Greece at some point and if you don't have a Trireme handy with a promotion (i.e. Vassalage) they will tear up a fishing boat or two on you. Annoying at the very least. I usually trash Pompeii in reply and sometimes make it along to Rome straight afterwards - depending on how many units Rome started walking towards Byzantion with their declaration of war.

I don't see the need to screw Rome out of their initial city builds, more that I see the need to counter-attack them around the time that they declare war.

 

[Verily]

Minor comment on the strategy guide: The reason Per-Wadjet doesn't get renamed to Alexandreia is because it wasn't (and isn't) anywhere near that city. It should be renamed Butos (or Buto, or Butosos) when conquered by Greece.

 

[onedreamer]

I hate it when Rome founds theology when I'm aiming for it, but now they're out of the picture.
If you take out the usual wonder building civs (Rome, Babylonia, Egypt) there's less competition for them. E.g. the Great wall which will free you up for research rather than defensive troops. Your research should be good enough anyway without anybody.

Rome usually declares war on Greece at some point and if you don't have a Trireme handy with a promotion (i.e. Vassalage) they will tear up a fishing boat or two on you. Annoying at the very least. I usually trash Pompeii in reply and sometimes make it along to Rome straight afterwards - depending on how many units Rome started walking towards Byzantion with their declaration of war.

I don't see the need to screw Rome out of their initial city builds, more that I see the need to counter-attack them around the time that they declare war.

I really don't agree with any of the tactics you two use ^^
First off, I hate to build the Great Wall, it's too cheap. In my Rome UHV yesterday it was my challenge to win without the Great Wall. And anyways Great Wall doesn't free up from building troops which you need anyways to discourage Civs from attacking you.

Rome will never be a problem militarily because it is rare it has spare units to send to you, and even if it does you got Phalanx or Crossbowmen (Machinery with The Oracle). All you have to do is build Triremes, which you need anyways since there are seldom barbarian Triremes appearing anyways. Why counterattacking ? Pretty pointless to me especially if you disband the cities you conquer if I understood well.
Rome will never be a problem culturally.
Rome will never be a problem in research competition (IE found Christianity), with the Oracle you'll get the GP needed way before, come on. With Parthenon, Tower of Pisa (optional, really) and the Greek UP you will get so many Great Peoples that you can do pretty much whatever you want.

 

[onedreamer]

Minor comment on the strategy guide: The reason Per-Wadjet doesn't get renamed to Alexandreia is because it wasn't (and isn't) anywhere near that city. It should be renamed Butos (or Buto, or Butosos) when conquered by Greece.

It happens if conquered by the Romans. On the other hand, Tanis doesn't get renamed from its Arabian name if conquered by Rome.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I really don't agree with any of the tactics you two use ^^
First off, I hate to build the Great Wall, it's too cheap. In my Rome UHV yesterday it was my challenge to win without the Great Wall. And anyways Great Wall doesn't free up from building troops which you need anyways to discourage Civs from attacking you.

Well, my current challenge is to build all the wonders (well, with the exception of Stonehenge) and I'm succeeding because the Romans were expelled from Italy (I opened borders with them after squatting on Neapolis and when they lost their settlers, I closed borders with them, flinging them across to North Africa, and they became the lost tribes of Rome since they headed south). I had no war with Brennus who was allowed to have a mini empire in Gaul. Great Wall allowed my European cities to build wonders without any troops (e.g. 2 warriors in Neapolis for happiness only, since Ethiopia is my vassal), but now I'm gearing up for the French and Germans, not to declare war on them, but for self-protection (with all those flipped barb swordsmen).

It's 760 and I am doing really well (especially since China collapsed due to a barb spawn). The Temple of Zeus allowed a quick war with Arabia after I recaptured Jerusalem. Beat the Persians to Shwedagon Paya (the only really expensive wonder due to lack of gold). Currently researching Engineering to build Notre Dame. Hopefully I'll continue on since nobody has my techs. I need some infrastructure badly though (I haven't even built a single market/library/grocer yet with all those wonders available!).