The most unsatisfactory feature of CIV2 is certainly the ineptitude of the AI, even at the higher levels. The creators have programmed the computer civilizations to often be active and belligerent; nonetheless, the AI maximizes the human player's thrills of conquest while {and this is probably most important from a marketing perspective) minimizing his agonies of defeat. Are there any indications (other than expanded diplomatic options) that the CIV3 AI will be significantly improved so that -- as has been achieved with computer chess -- the computer opponents will "play" the game and be worthy adversaries?
Will CIV3 AI "play" the game?
- Thread starter Cactus Pete
- Start date
BlueMonday
Can I Kick It?
Civ 3's AI will definitely be the defining factor in the game. Forget all the improvements suggested, the most important thing is to have a computer that can play. However, I don't exactly have the "deep blue" super computer at my house, so improvement will be limited.
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"Self-improvement is masturbation, but self-destruction..."
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"Self-improvement is masturbation, but self-destruction..."
scorch
Legalize Pot
hold on, is this some guy saying that firaxis is going to make c3 just for his computers specs?
BlueMonday
Can I Kick It?
What?!? NO. What I'm saying is that a competetant AI is not just a program, it requires very sophisticated hardware too (which even with a pentium 3-733mhz I don't have). I'm making the comparision between the everyday computer and the "deep blue" supercomputer that was able to learn chess moves from the world Grandmaster and defeated him after only four games. That level of AI will not be available to most people for some time.
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"Self-improvement is masturbation, but self-destruction..."
An AI equivalent to Deep Blue's is not needed. My five-year-old computer runs chess programs that are devastatingly challenging at the highest levels. I don't think there's a need for additional hardware to create a CIV3 AI that can play competetively. The question I'm asking is: Is the needed software being written?
Cunobelin Of Hippo
Site Pachyderm
The AI makes the game, so yes, it's very important that Civ 3's version be superior to the current one. This should probabaly be FIRAXIS biggest concern, or at least one of them, because in the end, a hurting AI leaves you doing nothing but building city imporvements and irrigating after 1000BC.
Fishheads
Warlord
rumor has it firaxis built a time machine to go back intime and take gangs khan and hardware his brain into the civ3 ai software
Dwarven_Megalomaniac
Chieftain
I always found that once I reached a certain point, my AI competitors refused to bounce back. It didn't matter what techs I gave them or how long I waited or how much space I gave them they would not grow and they would not go back on the offensive.
Its like if you beat them back to a certain point the AI just decides to "idle" or something. Anyway, I hope THAT gets fixed.
Its like if you beat them back to a certain point the AI just decides to "idle" or something. Anyway, I hope THAT gets fixed.
There is this list of AI stupidities at www.civfanatics.com/civ2ai.shtml . I don't know who made this list, but it might be very useful for the Civ3-developers. Those are exactly the things that should be improved in Civ3.
But still, I'm an amateur programmer...well, not even that, but anyway, I've programmed a boardgame once (Ludo) and programming the AI was the most difficult thing. Think of the factors which are involved to make a well 'thinking' AI-opponent. I've got a Pentium166 and the waiting for the AI-players take quite a long time at the end. If they make it even more complicated, it won't be playable anymore. Alright, Civ3 won't be playable on this apparatus anyway, but still...
Either you need very good programmers and a fast pc, or you have to make the AI-players 'cheat' as they do in Civ2. Nevertheless will it be improved in Civ3; I'm confident of that!
[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited February 19, 2001).]
But still, I'm an amateur programmer...well, not even that, but anyway, I've programmed a boardgame once (Ludo) and programming the AI was the most difficult thing. Think of the factors which are involved to make a well 'thinking' AI-opponent. I've got a Pentium166 and the waiting for the AI-players take quite a long time at the end. If they make it even more complicated, it won't be playable anymore. Alright, Civ3 won't be playable on this apparatus anyway, but still...
Either you need very good programmers and a fast pc, or you have to make the AI-players 'cheat' as they do in Civ2. Nevertheless will it be improved in Civ3; I'm confident of that!
[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited February 19, 2001).]
subnormalized
Chieftain
How about the computer being given extra advantages on the higher levels just like in SMAC? If you played it, you would know what I mean when I say "maybe a +3 advantage in growth, industry, extra Planet rating, etc." The best part of that approach is that they don't have to spend several years improving the AI to give the best players a challenge. The computer does need to understand the concept of 'acceptable losses', though. You can do a lot of things with just one strong defender in a given 'stack', things that a human player would never let you get away with.
BlueMonday
Can I Kick It?
The greatest annoyance I have with the AI in civ 2 is that on the higher levels it cheats you, and on the lower levels it cheats itself. Civ 3's AI should be able to play better and more informed, and not have to cheat to win.
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"Self-improvement is masturbation, but self-destruction..."
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"Self-improvement is masturbation, but self-destruction..."
Dwarven_Megalomaniac
Chieftain
I think there has to be some amount of "cheating" on the AI side no matter what.
To make an AI play using the same algorithms a human would use would need some kind of ridiculous computing power.
Am I wrong?
To make an AI play using the same algorithms a human would use would need some kind of ridiculous computing power.
Am I wrong?
TimTheEnchanter
I...am...an Enchanter!
I think the cheat factor will still be part of the AI game, because it is the simplest way to adjust levels of difficulty. Otherwise you have to program a Smart AI and a Stupid AI, and 4 "In-between" AIs which is much more work.
However, the Base AI does need to be a bit smarter. It shouldn't be hard to remember that if my cannon got killed by a veteran cavalry unit when I moved it up next to that city, the next cannon is probably going to get killed if I move it up there the next turn. and why does the AI love the Lighthouse when it's triremes don't sink anyway???...And maybe it shouldn't irrigate so many squares outside its city radii... ad infinitum.
It would be nice if they got the AI smart enough so that the AI had to cheat in OUR favor at the LOWER levels instead of the other way around.
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There are some who call me...Tim
However, the Base AI does need to be a bit smarter. It shouldn't be hard to remember that if my cannon got killed by a veteran cavalry unit when I moved it up next to that city, the next cannon is probably going to get killed if I move it up there the next turn. and why does the AI love the Lighthouse when it's triremes don't sink anyway???...And maybe it shouldn't irrigate so many squares outside its city radii... ad infinitum.
It would be nice if they got the AI smart enough so that the AI had to cheat in OUR favor at the LOWER levels instead of the other way around.
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There are some who call me...Tim
vladmir_illych_lenin
King
I observed the AI in CHieftan mode, and after the first 3 or 4 turns, roads and irrigation automatically appears in the grassland squares around the city. Now THAT is uneccessary. The production cheating is what makes it harder for humans to beat the AI, but free irrigation?
Dwarven_Megalomaniac
Chieftain
I've noticed that too!
Though later on in the game its like the computer just forgets about improving the city squares all together.
Though later on in the game its like the computer just forgets about improving the city squares all together.
