With god on our side?

[eyrei]

Should we add a new verse to this Bob Dylan song in the wake of the Republican Convention?:

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.


I think a new stanza just before the one about Jesus and Judas would be appropriate. I have to go to work, and I figured I would give myself something to do. I'll post my 'work' in about 9 hours...anyone else care to give it a shot?

 

[El Sop]

now men of terror do show
they urge for jihad
up to pieces they blow
and put bombs in Riyad

our prez preaching we hear
"for god and country we fight"
but for the future i fear
with god on each side

my 5 minute attempt... (not knowing the melody makes it kind of hard though)

 

[Thadlerian]

Should we add a new verse to this Bob Dylan song in the wake of the Republican Convention?:

I think a new stanza just before the one about Jesus and Judas would be appropriate. I have to go to work, and I figured I would give myself something to do. I'll post my 'work' in about 9 hours...anyone else care to give it a shot?

Sounds a bit like "Masters of War"... Not the same song, is it?

Might have to try this myself...

EDIT: Quoting the whole thing seemed a bit unpractical...

 

[Plotinus]

I think Bob Dylan should be flung from the space shuttle.

That seems a little extreme. He's been on pretty good form recently, and the man who sang "Blind Willie McTell" can be forgiven a lot.

 

[Thadlerian]

Alright, this one's about Norway, so there'll be no misunderstandings:

And the PM declares:
"Our land promotes peace!"
But he's always aware
which countries to please.
But of course we're the good guys
and there will be no blood
and we'll only do right things
'cause our faith lies in God.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I have no time for creaking old pseudo-communists.

His best music certianly transcends whatever labels you feel necessary apply to him personally. His age, politics and whatever other superficial characteristics annoy you are irrelevant to his stature as a muscian and songwriter. Now, had you written that the "creaking old pseudo-communist" wrote crappy songs, we could debate in style and I could criticize you for your total inability to recognize a genius who rewrote the musical lanscape of America and hence the world. But, since you didn't, I'm stuck with saying next time you listen to Desolation Row use the other half of your brain.

 

[AVN]

I think a new stanza just before the one about Jesus and Judas would be appropriate. I have to go to work, and I figured I would give myself something to do. I'll post my 'work' in about 9 hours...anyone else care to give it a shot?

I'm still waiting for the result of your work.
I guess I wil like it

 

[eyrei]

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

And we've got more money
And human lives can be bought
For the earth's burning bile
God's great army has fought
To question the command
Or choose the dove's side
Is to lose all we've gained
With God on our side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.


There you go. The bolded stanza is my addition...

 

[North King]

That's good. Depressing but good.

 

[AVN]

That's good. Depressing but good.

I second that.

 

[eyrei]

That's good. Depressing but good.

Thanks. Its depressing because the whole song is depressing...it seems so relevant to our current situation though...

 

[eyrei]

Moderator Action: Spam removed. This isn't a thread to bash Bob Dylan.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Plotinus]

Hang on. Did eyrei take a Moderator Action against himself?

 

[Aphex_Twin]

I think it was against Curtsibling. But besides that, bashing Bob Dylan is indeed blasphemy

 

[Birdjaguar]

Curt responded to my post and I missed it!! Rats!

 

[Marla_Singer]

Well, since this thread is about Bob Dylan. Here is another very good song about the war he has written on the same theme :

Come you masters of war
You that build the big guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

 

[zulu9812]

I know that this isn't a set of lyrics, but I feel it's pertinent to the theme of god being on one's side in a war:

The War Prayer
by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation

*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

 

[eyrei]

I guess the aspiring poets here are either very few in number or just not willing to take a shot at this, so lets move on to a discussion of the phenomenon itself.

I am very bothered by the continued existence of this 'effect'. I often wonder if the people that propogate such a notion that God is on their side in a conflict even believe it themselves. It seems more likely that it is a rhetorical tool used to bind a group together when the lack of cohesiveness might spell the end of that particular leader's power.

For instance, in our current situation where the United States, a predominantly Christian nation finds itself in conflict with a number of Muslim nations, where each side believes it has God as a 'supporter'. Since it is unlikely that God supports both sides, the conflict itself is actually strengthened as such a fundamental ideological difference, and some sort of theological jealousy spur people to greater anger at their enemies. The leaders on both sides seem to do their utmost to facilitate this 'angst', and I wonder if many of them are at all concerned with any sort of theological truth.

 

[AVN]

@Eyrei

It's a question which IMO is difficult to answer. Do the leaders really believe in their own religion, or are they using it to start the wars they want to start. I guess that both situations happen, even today.

Do I like it ? No IMO religion is abused here and it's one of the many reasons I have become agnostic, after being raised with Protestantism.

And you are right, it's impossible that God (if he exists) can be on both sides in a war. So one can wonder if God really supports your side, if he is supporting a side at all.

 

[Plotinus]

[eyrie] I think you're being a tad cynical. When Bush says that America has been charged by almighty God to bring democracy to the world, I have no doubt that he believes it. And I think that that is a worse situation than if he were simply saying that for cynical or political reasons.

That said, I don't agree with the common characterisation of Bush as fundamentalist Christian zealot. On the contrary, I think that much of what he says is profoundly unchristian and, paradoxically, the world would be much better off if he were *more* Christian. He might learn that humility is a virtue.