Wonder Elimination Thread

[basta]

Chichen Itza (10)
Notre Dame (11)
Great Library (8)
Hagia Sophia (24)
Hanging Gardens (7)
Oracle (6)

GL is not just an expensive library and a free tech, but if properly used, that free tech is Philosophy, which slingshots you to Classical and allows you to build the NC in another dozen or so turns. Play your Liberty-tree policies right and even at immortal you come out tech leader in a golden age with 1/3 off your SPs vs. # of cities, two workers who have completed building out your capital's tiles, and with a settler ready to plop.

You can get nearly the same SP benefit of building the Oracle while working on the GL/NC simply by rushbuying a monument asap, because you haven't expanded yet. Add a culture goodie hut and you're probably ahead. And you've got the GL and NC to boot.

What has the Oracle done for me lately?

 

[TheLastDays]

You can get the same SP benefit of building the Oracle while working on the GL/NC simply by rushbuying a monument asap, because you haven't expanded yet.

I don't see how this speaks against the Oracle or even for the GL. You can do this while working on the Oracle as well and in the end you have two SPs.

 

[basta]

I don't see how this speaks against the Oracle or even for the GL. You can do this while working on the Oracle as well and in the end you have two SPs.

Yes, true, but you don't have the GL and NC as well; you have another SP. I'd rather build a tech powerhouse and exploit low SP costs at the same time.

The point is that GL has a synergy effect even more powerful than Hagia Sophia, because using it defines the first half of the game and it can give you alot more than just what it offers if played right.

 

[TheLastDays]

Yes, true, but you don't have the GL and NC as well; you have another SP. I'd rather have the turbo tech.

I guess it's a question of personal preference. I usually have no problem boosting myself in the science race and am taking anything that gives me an advantage on the SP side.

 

[Becephalus]

Yes, true, but you don't have the GL and NC as well; you have another SP. I'd rather build a tech powerhouse and exploit low SP costs at the same time.

A) This is just stupid nonsense. The low SP cost has NOTHING to do with it, because a "free" SP reduces your SP costs for the whole game. It is more valuable then a free 20,0000 culture point SP at the end of the game because it both stops you from having to select that 20,000CP SP and you get it for the whole game.

The point is that GL has a synergy effect even more powerful than Hagia Sophia, because using it defines the first half of the game and it can give you a lot more than just what it offers if played right.

B) The opportunity cost of building the oracle /= the opportunity cost of building the GL+NC. It is not an equivalent trade.

That is like asking you if you would rather have a $200,000 house or a $1,000,000 boat. Sure the house is more useful, but the boat is "better" since you could sell it and still buy the house and more.

But if I ask you whether you would rather pay $200,000 for a house or pay $1,000,00 for a boat it is an entirely different story. Likewise with civ.

The wonders do not simply appear out of thin air, you need to research them, and then you need to build them before the AI does, and if you are going for quick NC you probably also need to refrain from building any settlers for quite a while.

C) Putting yourself in a straight jacket for the beginning of the game and gambling on a science lead when you have little production or growth is a huge risk. Sure it might work against the AI, but almost anything works against the AI. Against a player it is an incredibly risky and dumb move.

D) I am not even sure I like the Oracle better then the GL, but your argument was so ignorant I am going to boost the oracle and hurt the GL out of spite. Take some philosophy/logic courses.

Chichen Itza (10)
Notre Dame (11)
Great Library (5) -3
Hagia Sophia (24)
Hanging Gardens (7)
Oracle (7) +1

This thread is filled with simply atrocious arguments. Things that make absolutely no sense.
Suggested reading:
Wikipedia entry "Opportunity Cost"
Thinking about Logic Tidman&Kahane
Choices: An Introduction to Decision Theory Michael Resnik

 

[basta]

A) This is just stupid nonsense. The low SP cost has NOTHING to do with it, because a "free" SP reduces your SP costs for the whole game. It is more valuable then a free 20,0000 culture point SP at the end of the game because it both stops you from having to select that 20,000CP SP and you get it for the whole game.

Gee, no kidding. But your argument about early/late SP costs "has nothing to do" with I'm talking about. And really, who do you think you are to insult others so freely?

B) The opportunity cost of building the oracle /= the opportunity cost of building the GL+NC. It is not an equivalent trade.

That is like asking you if you would rather have a $200,000 house or a $1,000,000 boat. Sure the house is more useful, but the boat is "better" since you could sell it and still buy the house and more.

But if I ask you whether you would rather pay $200,000 for a house or pay $1,000,00 for a boat it is an entirely different story. Likewise with civ.

The wonders do not simply appear out of thin air, you need to research them, and then you need to build them before the AI does, and if you are going for quick NC you probably also need to refrain from building any settlers for quite a while.

No kidding! This thread is actually about building wonders, fancy that. So yeah, that is an integral part of the commentary--if you're going to build a wonder, which one, and why?

If you invest to build an expensive house, you then get a big benefit. Build a cheap boat, you get a cheap boat. Wow! Again, unbeatable logic!

I say, build the big, fancy house with 2 libraries in it, go for it! And along the way, buy a monument to stick in the front yard, because it will pay, too. At the end of the process you've got a nice big house with 2 libraries in it and a strong SP position too. Where is the "stupid nonsense" in this?

C) Putting yourself in a straight jacket for the beginning of the game and gambling on a science lead when you have little production or growth is a huge risk. Sure it might work against the AI, but almost anything works against the AI. Against a player it is an incredibly risky and dumb move.

Yes this is a risky strategy predicated on a single player game; but it has a huge payoff if you pull it off. And tell me, Einstein, re: risk: which wonder comes with the 100% you'll get it guarantee? And it's fun to do.

Arguing against it because you play MP and using that to mock single player strategies is comparing apples to oranges, and arrogant and condescending to boot.

D) I am not even sure I like the Oracle better then the GL, but your argument was so ignorant I am going to boost the oracle and hurt the GL out of spite. Take some philosophy/logic courses.

My, we are mature, aren't we? You know, this is just a game, right? And frankly, your logic is all over the place, and your arrogance is appalling.

 

[NicTeos]

Really? I must admit that I have never been in a situation where I could say "I have too many great engineers and don't know what to do with them". What difficulty are you even playing? In high difficulties getting hanging gardens can be very hard when AIs like to build it very early and you can't go wonder whoring just like that. While I agree that HG can be nice to have it is off the normal tech progression paths and I'm not comfortable enough to try to grab it when it is so easy to lose the race for it.

? eahm,
I haven't written anything about having too much GE's, and you can't ever have enough great persons.... like too much production, gold, science, happiness, you can't ever have too much, only critically too less in some cases.
I have written " There are better wonders, for a SE -strategy, and a GE to rush another wonder, maybe this can useful in some cases, it's not a problem with a HG City and it's production and science through its size. Also there are other sources to get a GE, if you really want a wonder ... "

Better wonders for a SE-strategy are SoL and CI, I later use normally quite every GP for GA's and have tons of specialists.
A GE is always nice to have, and that isn't the question. The question is, how useful a GE can be. If It finish a wonder 20 turns earlier, it's nice, but if I can be quite sure, that I can't build a wonder as fast as another nation, then it's useful. And if the wonder is a good one for your strategy, then it can be very useful. However, for me the GE from HS is in the most cases only nice to have. Especially then, when I have an awesome HG city. To get a GE you could also build Pyramids and Great wall ( GE points), or by SP, if you really need a GE.

And I normally play on king/emperor, because it made the most the fun. If I wanted to try something new, then I have token prince, and at begin, with the first version, with the ueber-cav, also on deity. But civ5 hardly makes any fun, ... and compared to civ4 ....

HG : It's true, that it is hard to get, but in almost any case I try to build HG. Maybe you start a game on prince, or what's your test-difficulty lvl is, and build HG and change to hammer production in your city, or what you prefer. And play until renaissance/industrial age.

My further normal settings are : Bigger maptypes, Continental/pangäa, epic speed, and as civ : france,india, persia,egpyt

 

[Poomermon]

@NicTeos: I usually play immortal/deity and actually winning a wonder race can be really hard there so accessibility of wonders is a big factor for me. Incidentally hagia sophia is the one wonder you can consistently get in higher difficulties and the great engineer allows you to build another wonder without risk so that is a big plus in its favour. I realise this thread is not about which wonder is best in deity so I'm sorry if I sounded a bit rude in my last comment. Anyway I concede that hanging gardens is a good wonder but getting it is a bit difficult in high difficulties.

 

[Bezurn]

Chichen Itza (7)
Notre Dame (11)
Great Library (8)
Hagia Sophia (25)
Hanging Gardens (5)
Oracle (6)

(+) HG : *Starts a game as Monte and OOC's a size 40 city before the industrial era*
(-) CI : A must for Persia, but only useful for civs who invest heavily in golden ages through small empire size or burning lots of specialists.

 

[H.M. Henrik]

Chichen Itza (4)
Notre Dame (11)
Great Library (9)
Hagia Sophia (25)
Hanging Gardens (5)
Oracle (6)

I'd still like to see the Hagia Sophia more competitive, but it really is good, isn't it? As for the others:

Great Library: Just played a game with Babylon, and the double slingshot (plus free Library) was amazing. So there's that.

Chichen Itza: Golden ages are nice and all, but I've never found them critical for my style. Happiness, food, tech, SP, and free Great People seem more useful to me.

(Thanks to CivNoob for starting this thread, BTW, and for all the interesting contributions.)

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Chichen Itza (5)
Notre Dame (11)
Great Library (9)
Hagia Sophia (22)
Hanging Gardens (5)
Oracle (6)

Well, I'm going to argue that Gold ages are quite good for before war, especailly if you enjoy actually purchasing all of your army.

On the other hand.... Hagia Sophia.. well while the Great Person bonus is a good thing, I just don't think it's as useful as the other current remaining wonders.

 

[civ7]

Chichen Itza (5)
Notre Dame (11)
Great Library (6)
Hagia Sophia (22)
Hanging Gardens (5)
Oracle (7)


The GL may even be a slightly better wonder except for the opportunity cost.

 

[insaneweasel]

Chichen Itza (5)
Notre Dame (12) +1
Great Library (6)
Hagia Sophia (19) -3
Hanging Gardens (5)
Oracle (7)

HS: Overrated
ND: Great on higher difficulties.

 

[NicTeos]

Chichen Itza (5)
Notre Dame (12)
Great Library (6)
Hagia Sophia (16) -3
Hanging Gardens (6) +1
Oracle (7)

HG : it's great to get an awesome production city
HS : same arguments as the days before and maybe it's better on deity, or said other, easier to build. However I don't vote, if a wonder is easy or hard to build ( like the mountain req. for MP or competition at HG), I vote mainly about the effect, the age it comes and maybe at some exocitic wonders also at the tech it needs (like Louvre vs. TM). ... so it's also impossible to get GL,Oracle and HG on higher difficulties, but the wonders thereself are very good, each on.

However, maybe it would be funny to have a game-settings,playstyle elimination thread, to know what people are playing

 

[basta]

Chichen Itza (5)
Notre Dame (12)
Great Library (7)
Hagia Sophia (16)
Hanging Gardens (6)
Oracle (4)

Done enough 'splainin already (jees!). That's my vote.

 

[zyx]

Chichen Itza (5)
Notre Dame (12)
Great Library (7)
Hagia Sophia (16)
Hanging Gardens (3)
Oracle (5)

If I had the choice to play without one of these wonders, I'd say HG woud be "sacrified".
I like SPs, cannot get enough of them, even if I am no going for a CV.

 

[Raneman]

Chichen Itza (5)
Notre Dame (9)
Great Library (7)
Hagia Sophia (16)
Hanging Gardens (4)
Oracle (5)

Hanging Gardens at least had a purpose, and I won't let you guys murder it so fast.
Notre Dame, on the other hand, does not. It's simply happiness. Might as well build circuses and colosseums for the same effect with less production.

 

[Bezurn]

Chichen Itza (2)
Notre Dame (12)
Great Library (7)
Hagia Sophia (16)
Hanging Gardens (4)
Oracle (5)

Wow talk about a slug fest here.. can you imagine if we were still doing this -2 +1?? zzzZZzzzZZZzzz

I'll save my precious 10 food wonder so at least 2 people will have to kill it. Never thought I see the HS drop from 30+ to so low.

 

[NicTeos]

I think, Bezurn hasn't continue from raneman,

if, it would be

Chichen Itza (2)
Notre Dame (9)
Great Library (7)
Hagia Sophia (16)
Hanging Gardens (5)
Oracle (5)

And maybe, plz don't make a vote in a quote....

 

[Lord Chambers]

Chichen Itza (2)
Notre Dame (6)
Great Library (7)
Hagia Sophia (16)
Hanging Gardens (6)
Oracle (5)

Hanging Gardens says it's 10 food every turn for the rest of the game, but really it's 15-20 hammers every turn for the rest of the game (work mines). In that way it's similar to Hagia Sophia for nabbing future wonders, but more useful because the hammers can apply to units and buildings that you can't use a great engineer as easily for.

Notre Dame says it's 10 happiness, but really it's 10 people, which is around 5-8 science plus 10 tile yields, which could be 30 hammers or 40 coins or some other arbitrary measure. But, happiness is elastic, it tends to expand when you need it and in that way not as useful as Hanging Gardens which instantly adds juice to your empire. And some games happiness is so loose you'll never need it, whereas the 10+ food is always useful whether going wide or tall or peaceful or warlike or long term or short term.