Wonders benefits should not be one-off

[platyping]

Basically I feel that wonder benefits should be something not found in ordinally buildings and not one-off benefits like louvre giving 2 free GA, brandenburg gate giving 1 GG or oracle for 1 social policy. Seriously, am I building a wonder or a person? I am not saying that free great persons are useless, but the concept is just wrong. Even the porcelain tower which used to give just GS has been changed to give special powers now(the research agreement) so why not the others.

Wonders that give just one-off benefits become obsolete the moment it finished building. What is the point of conquering a town with an oracle whereas conquering a town with a big ben will still be useful.

Some ideas:
Stonehenge: Used to give 11 culture, then 8 which is still ok. Now just 6... Nothing wrong, but the benefit is pretty dull. Can make maintainence of monuments in all cities free.

Oracle: Seriously, I don't even know why is this thing still here in Civ V. An oracle is just an ancient soothsayer, not even a building, how did it become a world wonder. Can be replaced easily with any of the ancient wonders from Civ IV like temple of artemis, statue of zeus etc

Great Wall: Why is this the ONLY wonder with powers that become obsolete with advanced technology? Yeah, I know we got tanks and planes etc that ignore the usefullness of the wall but at least the great wall is still standing in China, but where are the other ancient wonders like hanging gardens or colossus besides the pyramid?
Even the great lighthouse is not obsolete when ships nowadays have all the radar equipments. Gameplay wise it won't be gamebreaking since modern units like tanks or gunships can move 4~5 spaces, 1 less won't be gamebreaking.

Great Library: Yeah I know free technology is great, but after that it is just a free library. Perhaps change the 3 science output to 5~10% in all cities.

Brandenburg Gate: Just a freaking free GG now. Change to increase GG spawn rate, or increase GG damage bonus or both.

Taj Mahal: A free golden age, but after that is just a useless building. Perhaps reduce the effects of unhappiness? Veryunhappy occurs at 15 instead of 10, reduce unhappy production penalty and damage penalty.

Lourve: 2 free GA now. Increase culture in that city or all cities by a %. Or reduce culture buildings maintainence in that city.

Angkot Wat: 25% reduced cost and culture to acquire tiles. Well, this IS a special benefit not found in ordinary buildings, but as most people pointed out, pretty useless. It would be useful if conquered cities start with basic 6 hexes culture.

 

[Glassmage]

Sorry I don't want more wonderwhores!

 

[jdog5000]

Great people and free social policies are not one-off events ... you can get 12 - 28 culture per turn from two great artists for the rest of the game by building landmarks, and you also get the benefits of whatever policy you choose forever.

Sure, a conqueror may get nothing, but that's not the point. The builder can choose their long term benefits.

 

[SpearMan153]

don't forget they also give great people points and a little culture - but yeah

 

[platyping]

Sorry I don't want more wonderwhores!

Well, it is not about making wonders overpowered. It is more about making their abilities more "special". I am sure values can always be altered to make them "balanced", and anyway if you are a wonderwhore concentrating on building tons of wonders, chances are your enemies have a bigger army and your wonderful cities become theirs.

Great people and free social policies are not one-off events ... you can get 12 - 28 culture per turn from two great artists for the rest of the game by building landmarks, and you also get the benefits of whatever policy you choose forever.

Sure, a conqueror may get nothing, but that's not the point. The builder can choose their long term benefits.

Well sure free great people and free social policie or technology are useful, but since a special ability has been added to porcelain tower, why not the others as well, so that they dont end up as pretty vases with not much use after they are built? I rather have something special than the extra 1~3 culture added with the recent patch.

Otherwise, you might as well rename Brandenburg Gate as Sun Tze, Timur or any other great general. Am I building a wonder or a person?

 

[Lose]

the wonders are fine the way it is

 

[Babri]

I agree. The wonders which provide Great People are not that interesting & some of them are even useless.

 

[zyx]

I wish wonder at later ages, or even all wonders increase the cultur output with each new period - so that Hanging Gardens give you more cultur in modern times than at the start. Getting 1 culture from pentagon is pretty useless, as the costs for social policies are high by that time.

A GS can give you a new tech which can be a military advantage, so it can be quite useful.
It's your decision to turn a short time effect into a long term advantage. And of course the way you play determines which wonders are useful and which are not.

I hardly ever build the Great Wall, so I don't mind GW getting obsolete. I am happy that the AI builds it so I get wonders that I prefer.

 

[Becomedeath]

The wonder may have a one off effect, but the bonus it provides will last you the whole game.

Saved me 1000+ beakers? Yes please!

Golden age that boosts production in the middle of my war? Not gonna say no.

Free social policy boosting my overall game? Can you gift wrap?

To say these are "one off" effects is nonsense. The wonder itself might only be useful for that single benefit, but that benefit can be game changing. The fact they're not a major benefit after building them is part of how they work, they give you an immedaite advatage over other civilisatons...how hard is that to work out?

For example, build the Hagia Sofia while you're researching Education and gift yourself a great engineer, POW! Porcelain Tower instantly then POW another free tech. That one off wonder just gave you a tech lead and boosted your RAs to virtually give you free techs every 30 turns. How does then capturing the Hagia Sofia help you? Ooh your workers go a little faster...major bonus there, although there are about 5 other ways in the game to acheive that without the wonder...

How you can not see that the benefits of these wonders are not isolated incidents is rather disturbing.

I'm not even going to go into the benefits of the Oracle as if you think a free social policy isn't worth a little building time, then you really do need to go back and have a long hard look at square one whilst writing the word "home" on it.

 

[master__jj]

Oracle: Seriously, I don't even know why is this thing still here in Civ V. An oracle is just an ancient soothsayer, not even a building, how did it become a world wonder. Can be replaced easily with any of the ancient wonders from Civ IV like temple of artemis, statue of zeus etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi#Oracle
and
http://civilopedia5.com/wonders/oracle.html
Works perfectly for me, though I would like to see the other wonders included as well.

 

[wannabewarlord]

To say these are "one off" effects is nonsense. The wonder itself might only be useful for that single benefit, but that benefit can be game changing. The fact they're not a major benefit after building them is part of how they work, they give you an immedaite advatage over other civilisatons...how hard is that to work out?

Amen.

And yes, the Oracle is in fact a place as the previous poster stated. So yes, you are building a wonder, not a person.

 

[civnoob13]

Stonehenge: Used to give 11 culture, then 8 which is still ok. Now just 6... Nothing wrong, but the benefit is pretty dull. Can make maintainence of monuments in all cities free.

6 culture is admittedly not that much, but the maintenance thing will make close to no difference to small empires - small empires should be the ones building it.

Oracle: Seriously, I don't even know why is this thing still here in Civ V. An oracle is just an ancient soothsayer, not even a building, how did it become a world wonder. Can be replaced easily with any of the ancient wonders from Civ IV like temple of artemis, statue of zeus etc

Valid point, but no gameplay reason to change it.

Great Wall: Why is this the ONLY wonder with powers that become obsolete with advanced technology? Yeah, I know we got tanks and planes etc that ignore the usefullness of the wall but at least the great wall is still standing in China, but where are the other ancient wonders like hanging gardens or colossus besides the pyramid?

Whilst the hanging gardens or colossus could still (somehow) do their job if they were still here, the great wall wouldn't be able to.

Even the great lighthouse is not obsolete when ships nowadays have all the radar equipments. Gameplay wise it won't be gamebreaking since modern units like tanks or gunships can move 4~5 spaces, 1 less won't be gamebreaking.

Valid point, but the great lighthouse is already rubbish enough as it is. Why make it worse by making it obsolete?

Great Library: Yeah I know free technology is great, but after that it is just a free library. Perhaps change the 3 science output to 5~10% in all cities.

That is very OP. Either/or.

Brandenburg Gate: Just a freaking free GG now. Change to increase GG spawn rate, or increase GG damage bonus or both.

Completely agree, that would be a welcome change.

Taj Mahal: A free golden age, but after that is just a useless building. Perhaps reduce the effects of unhappiness? Veryunhappy occurs at 15 instead of 10, reduce unhappy production penalty and damage penalty.

I like that idea, but it might be a little OP. It would be interesting to see that interesting.

Lourve: 2 free GA now. Increase culture in that city or all cities by a %. Or reduce culture buildings maintainence in that city.

Agreed - increase culture in some way.

Angkot Wat: 25% reduced cost and culture to acquire tiles. Well, this IS a special benefit not found in ordinary buildings, but as most people pointed out, pretty useless. It would be useful if conquered cities start with basic 6 hexes culture.

Conquered cities start off with however many hexes that city earned - far more than 6. Do you mean newly founded cities? It might be a little too late for this to make a difference.

 

[platyping]

Well I guess I have to elaborate what I mean by one-off and continuous. Of course I know by giving me a free tech or great person, this will affect the whole game forever. But seriously, destroying a barbarian emcampent and getting 75 gold is also a one-off event as in it won't repeat again, unless you find another camp of course. Of course this 75 gold will speed up your buying of worker, settler or whatever and change your whole game forever, but it is still one-off and not a continuous event that is affecting every single turn like building a market.

I am not saying one-off events are useless so you don't have to tell me how useful a free technology or great person is. It just makes the wonders boring and useless after they are built. You won't even feel the pain if your city with that wonder is captured compared to a city with a continuous benefit wonder like machu pichu or big ben.

And as I mentioned, porcelain tower now has a continuous benefit besides the free great scientist. It is no longer just a dull and boring "build a great scientist and dump me afterwards" wonder. Why can't the others have some continuous benefits as well besides the one-off benefits so that they won't become pretty and useless vases after the one-off benefit is collected?

And with regards to oracle, refer to the civilopedia. Our dear developers view it as "a priest or priestess through whom the gods spoke in response to questions". In short, a person. "The most famous oracle resided in the shrine of Apollo at Delphi, located on the slopes of Mount Parnassus." The shrine is the building, the oracle lives in the building. So how did a person become a wonder? There are so many better alternatives from old civ games like temple of artemis so why is this still here.

And with regards to civnoob13, well I mean if even the great lighthouse is not obsolete with modern technology, why should the great wall be obsolete? I mean hey, even NORMAL walls retain their benefits, yet a GREAT wall becomes obsolete? As for angkot wat, well I mean IF conquered starts with just 6 hexes instead of all the hexes earned by previous owner, then it would be useful.

 

[rfxmills]

I don't like wonders which give a free person, it feels like the devs had run out of ideas so tossed in a great person instead. I especially dislike the free GP of your choice, which I'll use to get another wonder... just a little over powered!

I think the Lourve should been a free museum at least, and like your idea for the Bradenburg gate enhancing GGs in someway.

Although all the other wonders are impressive constructions, the Oracle is more of an institution? People didn't travel there for thousands of years to see a person or a shrine, they went to consult the oracle. The person who was the oracle changed, but they were always a conduit for Apollo. The fact it gives great scientist points I do disagree with though

 

[insaneweasel]

To say these are "one off" effects is nonsense. The wonder itself might only be useful for that single benefit, but that benefit can be game changing. The fact they're not a major benefit after building them is part of how they work, they give you an immedaite advatage over other civilisatons...how hard is that to work out?

I don't think you got the point of the OP...one-of effects may be powerful, but they are boring compared to wonders that require some strategy to work well. Take Statue of Liberty; it's a creative wonder because you need to consider the benefits of working specialists vs working tiles. It makes decisions with citizen management more interesting.

The oracle is a good wonder, but it requires no real leveraging. Same with stonehenge. The OP wanted wonders to give useful abilities that must be carefully managed.

 

[Babri]

Valid point, but the great lighthouse is already rubbish enough as it is. Why make it worse by making it obsolete?

I think what he was trying to do was to compare Great Lighthouse with Great Wall. If Great Lighthouse doesn't get obsolete then why do Great Wall effect is gone with Dynamite.